NL100 6m: KK facing donkbet on the flop from aggr villian.

MightySan · #1 03-17-2007, 06:27 PM

Villian is 25/15/13 after 50 hands. Aggr factor was really 13! Not 1.3 ))
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($50.55)
CO ($66.40)
Hero ($126.80)
SB ($165.39)
BB ($47.15)
UTG ($116.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, SB (poster) calls $3.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($9) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $6, Hero ...

nickg1532 · #2 03-17-2007, 06:29 PM

i probably call and see what he does on the turn.

Jojje_2k · #3 03-17-2007, 06:35 PM

Just call him down, let him bluff.

MightySan · #4 03-18-2007, 03:05 AM

I thought so... But what would be if he caught a set already?

Flop: ($9) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $6, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($21) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $13, Hero ...

Jigsaws · #5 03-18-2007, 05:49 AM

Keep calling. $13 doesn't look like a set to me, and you may be able to squeeze out some more value from a weak overpair.

MightySan · #6 03-18-2007, 06:04 AM

Flop: ($9) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $6, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($21) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $13, Hero calls $13.

River: ($47) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ...

Ok. Here we may conclude our KK aer definately good. Looks like he hasn't a queen. Yes? How much would you bet?

Idan151 · #7 03-18-2007, 06:25 AM

I think I bet like 20-25 here to get value if he calls you with 88-99 and doesn't think you have a Q

MightySan · #8 03-18-2007, 06:32 AM

Jigsaws and Idan, you are nice hand-readers, I would say ))

I made too smallish bet, I think. I made it $15 into $48 pot. I agree, that I should bet although $20. I always can't extract that value that I could (((.

Flop: ($9) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $6, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($21) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $13, Hero calls $13.

River: ($47) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB calls $15.

Final Pot: $77

Results in white below: 
SB doesn't show (he had 99).
Hero has Ks Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $77.

OtZman · #9 03-18-2007, 07:01 AM

What about raising the flop, making around a pot sized raise (~$21)? If not, when is this the right play, if ever?

MightySan · #10 03-18-2007, 07:22 AM

I thought about it... Wanted to know 2+2 opinions. But I think, there are some problems in raising. Some guys likes to donkbet flopped sets or other monsters. If pf-raiser makes feeler raise with his big overpair, they just calls and check the turn. Pf-raiser is very glad that his QQ+ are likely very strong and bet 2/3 on the turn. Then follows small c/r on the turn and bet on the river. And QQ+ are busted. It would be very difficult to fold a smallish c/r on the turn with KK.
Or maybe raising the flop and then to check behind the turn to controll the pot? It is better play, I think. On the river call or value bet if checked to you. But sometimes you would be so glad to see check on the turn that firing the turn will take one second from you...

Another problem is that you won't get some value from worse hands like 99-TT if you raise the flop, still losing a big pot to sets and AA. But I think, raising can be more profitable against JJ and QQ. But those hands are usually in 3bet range of all aggressive players.
Your thoughts?