Misplayed AK out of position

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
Brad,

You're missing the whole point.

EVERY decision is a pots odds decision. In the "rock garden" example you cite, I imagine everyone here agrees with you that it is correct to fold. But it's important to think about why you are folding in correct terms. You fold there, and not, say, in the original post, because the combined odds of catching a better card on the turn, catching a better card on the river (if the turn checks through), or showing down the best hand on the river (somehow) do not combine to be a significant enough probability to merit investing a bet, given the current pot size.

Thinking in terms of platitudes like "why draw against a made hand?" is very dangerous. I've seen many poor players spout that kind of line when they fold solid drawing hands (like flush draws on the turn) when it is very incorrect to do so. (The same poor players, in fact, who peel gutshots on the flop indiscriminately). Every situation is relative, and the key variable in almost every poker decision is pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that poker is a situational game but to me pot odds is not the only driving force in whether to bet, call, or fold. I try to play the player as much if not more than the odds. Sorry if I don't play the way you do. FWIW, I don't ever recall folding a flush draw on the turn or chasing a gutshot.

[ssmallz]

[ QUOTE ]
I try to play the player as much if not more than the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prolly my favorite quote to hear in limit hold em b/c most of the time I'm taking money off the person who says it.

[Sqred]

My default line here is to call the flop raise because I am definitely getting the right price to peel.

Once I pick up the additional outs with the seven of spades on the turn I would definitely be getting my price to call a bet so I would checkraise the turn and lead at the river no matter what came.

If he three bets me on the turn, I am forced to call but can muck the river bet. Either way I am putting in three big bets to get to showdown. At least I get to take a shot at the pot with my turn checkraise.

I like to be agressive with hands like this for a lot of reasons that in my opinion get more and more important the higher you play.

In some games online an argument could be made for four betting this turn with the naked ace of spades.

I just think check call fold is too exploitable against thinking oponenents, for this hand and metagame game considerations.

FJM

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]
My default line here is to call the flop raise because I am definitely getting the right price to peel.

Once I pick up the additional outs with the seven of spades on the turn I would definitely be getting my price to call a bet so I would checkraise the turn and lead at the river no matter what came.

If he three bets me on the turn, I am forced to call but can muck the river bet. Either way I am putting in three big bets to get to showdown. At least I get to take a shot at the pot with my turn checkraise.

I like to be agressive with hands like this for a lot of reasons that in my opinion get more and more important the higher you play.

In some games online an argument could be made for four betting this turn with the naked ace of spades.

I just think check call fold is too exploitable against thinking oponenents, for this hand and metagame game considerations.

FJM

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya I was wondering about raising the turn also. Thinking of some hands we could make fold...

[Sqred]

I think we could fold quite a few hands that an agressive opponent would be rasing this flop with. Small pocket pairs, decent aces, air. all sorts of stuff. How albut Ace king?

My main point is that if you check call the turnin the absence of a real strong read, you almost have to call the river bet from an odds standpoint. So you might as well check rasie the turn and try to get some better hands to fold. I think that a big bet is a small price to pay to keep the hand pure given the nuber of outs yo liklely have.

[rafiki]

so we c/r, and he reraises, it's pretty much call, and check/fold a river that doesn't hit us hard ? Would you bet/fold if the A or K hit the river after we've gone 3 on the turn ?