CAZ 20/40 K4s in sb.

[Hass]

CAZ 20/40. Full of bad players, except for 2, but they are all playing pretty tight.

MP young pro who respects my game and has told me so. He plays a fairly TAG straight forward game.
bb is a terrible player who has no idea what he is doing.

Mp open limps, Hero completes small blind with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], bb checks.

flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

hero bets, bb raises, MP calls, hero calls.

turn 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

hero checks, bb bets, MP raises, hero????

[CardSharpCook]

Is your raise button broken? Why didn't you 3bet the flop? I don't get it. On the turn, I still don't get it. DO MATH! You should know that MP has 78. Do you have odds to call to your flush draw or not?

[HOWMANY]

You have like 400 outs on the flop, why didn't you 3bet?

I don't even understand the turn question. If he has 78 then your flush outs are good, if he has a set then your non pair board flush and gutshots are good so you aren't folding no matter what.

[Hass]

Ok, so I 3 bet the flop and it either gets called or capped by whoever. Now I miss on the turn, action goes check, bet, raise. Is this still a question of "do I have odds to call?" or am I betting out on a turn card that doesn't make my hand?

[JJH3984]

wtf no flop 3bet?

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I 3 bet the flop and it either gets called or capped by whoever. Now I miss on the turn, action goes check, bet, raise. Is this still a question of "do I have odds to call?" or am I betting out on a turn card that doesn't make my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hass, the first part of your question is simple mathematics. Odds of hitting your draw + implied odds Vs. pot odds(unless we have reason to believe we are drawing to second best). You can't be playing 20/40 and be asking this question. This is poker 101.

The answer to the second part of your question depends on the situation. In this case I don't bet the turn if it's obvious I'm behind and a better hand is not going to fold or worse raise. There will be many times when it will be best to bet or sometimes even C/R to keep pumping the pot if enough players were involved in the hand and we had a significant equity edge(this circumstance won't arise very often)

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I 3 bet the flop and it either gets called or capped by whoever. Now I miss on the turn, action goes check, bet, raise. Is this still a question of "do I have odds to call?" or am I betting out on a turn card that doesn't make my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, although it's repetitive, I'll also say you should've 3 bet the flop and liked it if it got capped. If you miss on the turn you check and call. You've got plenty of outs.

As played (if I've added correctly) there was $300 in the pot when it got back to you on the turn for an $80 call. That's an immediate 3.75 to 1. When you add in the 3 red str8 cards you've got more than enough outs to call. But let's go a step further. What does MP have? Would YOU have slow played a set on this flop? Would you have limped in MP w/ 8-7s? If you had limped w/ AA would you have not raised on the flop? What I'm getting at is that for all you know a King may be an out also. There is also the chance of collecting a bet or 2 on the river if you hit. So: I'd check and call in this spot.

Disclaimer: I'm not a math guy and I admit it. This is as close as I come. Every time I try to analyze any poker situation w/ numbers in it I'm nervous and I admit that also. So, if I've made a mistake, you all know why. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
CAZ 20/40. Full of bad players, except for 2, but they are all playing pretty tight.

MP young pro who respects my game and has told me so. He plays a fairly TAG straight forward game.
bb is a terrible player who has no idea what he is doing.

Mp open limps, Hero completes small blind with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], bb checks.

flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

hero bets, bb raises, MP calls, hero calls.

turn 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

hero checks, bb bets, MP raises, hero????

[/ QUOTE ]

First off... I will beat the drum here and say you should 3-bet the flop and then lead the turn here. As played--you have got yourself in a predicament. The overriding question here is what is the MP player doing? Does he have 7-8 here or is he making a play at the pot against the terrible player and trying to squeeze you out? If he is capable of that then I think you should strongly consider making a re-squeeze at the pot and 3 bet the turn here.

However, you did say he was TAG and st8 forward. Do you think he could open limp with 7-8 suited here? If he can then I think he is not the caliber player you are giving him credit to be. I think he could have a hand like A-A here or a hand like a pair and a flush or st8 draw as well. I really like a 3-bet here and then lead the river.

The predicament you have gotten yourself into here by not 3 betting the flop has made it difficult for you to define the hand range of the players involved. All-in-all here I think giving the terrible player control was a big mistake b/c you have allowed the MP player to make a play at the pot.

[cgrohman]

3-bet the flop. Do the pot odds on the turn as played.

[rafiki]

(capping that flop is standard for me)

My question is what % of the time after capping that flop, would you then lead the blank turn. Same question if it just went 3 bets on the flop. I'm more prone to check/call the turn, but I think that's probably the passive player in me. Then again maybe leading helps you hide the flush if/when you do hit.