.50/1 PLO8 Hand help

Rxd Rxxf · #1 03-13-2007, 02:42 AM

First time playing PLO8. Would appreciate any help, but would really like to know if it is best to get all in on the flop, or wait for a non-heart turn. Was my stack to small to push them off a draw, or are they getting correct odds? Also, overall, how well (or not) is this hand played? I understand you want to start with a hand that can scoop the pot, but is this hand playable/acceptable?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($198.10)
UTG ($104.15)
Hero ($59.05)
CO ($109.60)
Button ($64.10)
SB ($52.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, Button raises to $4.5, SB calls $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50.

Flop: ($14.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $13.8, SB calls $13.80, Hero raises to $54.55, Button raises to $59.6, SB calls $34.20 (All-In).

Turn: ($176.65) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($176.65) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $176.65

Results in white below: 
Hero has 7s Th 9s 8d (High: straight, jack high).
Button has 4d Kc Qh Ah (Low: 8, 7, 6, 4, A | High: flush, ace high).
SB has 6c 5d 3c 2d (Low: 7, 6, 4, 3, 2 | High: straight, eight high).
Outcome: Button wins $97.40. SB wins $79.25.

AAxxCracker · #2 03-13-2007, 04:47 AM

First of all, this hand is unplayable. Well, maybe on the button in a 9 handed table and several players limped in so you are hoping for a 456 rainbow flop.

Once you played it and it was raised by the button for pot just fold it.

Once you decided to see the flop and called the pot raise you should have waited to see the turn before committing. And the perfect card on the turn would be a non-heart King. A non-heart low rag wouldn't have been too bad either but you're very likely only going for half the pot.

Really, this was a mess you got into by playing middle straight cards in a hi/lo game. It doesn't matter that it was 6 handed.

Phil153 · #3 03-13-2007, 05:22 AM

789Ts is a playable hand in MP. Nothing to get excited about, but there's a slight profit in it and it increases your VPIP.

The flop is fine. If three low cards came with the flush draw you'd have to dump it, but as is it's ok. This is a perfect spot for a check raise and you played it well. Just calling that flop against two players (one of whom is a preflop c-bettor) is an expensive mistake when you're that short.

bbartlog · #4 03-13-2007, 09:54 AM

Hand is pretty junky, but I'd be lying if I said I never played similar hands myself. Still, against a preflop raise I would normally ditch this.
Waiting until the turn to get it all in gives you a chance to fold if a heart falls. And of course if the low comes you'll probably have to call while getting freerolled. Against one opponent I think this line is superior to getting it all in on the flop, but in the situation you had (two callers) I think jamming here is correct.
Also, with very deep stacks I would probably call flop just to control the pot size in case I was getting freerolled by a hand like A29T, 9TJQ, 9TJJ, 9Txx with hearts and so on.

For what it's worth opponents seem pretty bad. Calling all-in here on this flop with 2356 is atrocious. AKQ4 suited in hearts isn't much better. I would want to be drawing to the nut low or have the current nut high (like you) to be pushing on this flop.

davebreal · #5 03-13-2007, 10:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand you want to start with a hand that can scoop the pot, but is this hand playable/acceptable?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, go skim a book with O8 starting hands.. maybe Super System or Play Poker Like The Pros.

BananaDan · #6 03-13-2007, 12:06 PM

Lovely PLO hand, pretty horrible for O8. With an 8 qualifier you´re in no mans land holding nothing but middle cards. I often see players recommend that beginners should throw away anything containing an 8 and/or a 9. A bit simplified perhaps but IMO this is way more often right than wrong. Like Todd says in his Stud O8 chapter: start with high or low cards - NEVER in between.

TomG · #7 03-13-2007, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
789Ts is a playable hand in MP. Nothing to get excited about, but there's a slight profit in it and it increases your VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]
With a full stack, perhaps. However given hero's stack size, committing over 7% of his stack pre-flop with such a speculative hand cannot be profitable.

Phil153 · #8 03-13-2007, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
789Ts is a playable hand in MP. Nothing to get excited about, but there's a slight profit in it and it increases your VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]
With a full stack, perhaps. However given hero's stack size, committing over 7% of his stack pre-flop with such a speculative hand cannot be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a top 5% raiser and a top 10% caller, 15% of flops give us over 50% equity in the 3 way pot. A further 20% give us +EV. Heads up against a 5%er we'll be ahead about 25% of the time - more if the caller overlaps his range. The beauty of this hand is that those spots are easily identified, because pairs and wraps tend to overlap. For example, in this hand we have four outs to a full house in addition to the nut straight. Add in a bit of fold equity for semibluffing the tight spots, and you've got a winner.

The advantage of this hand OOP is that you can get creative with the check raise. You also get enough AAL players who refuse to fold after a c-bet on a two low flop. Enough for a small profit in my books.

BTW, almost all the expert commentary regarding middle cards O8 is written for limit, where they're awful. In PLO8 you have a bit more freedom - very coordinated middle cards are sometimes worth playing. At least for me. Your mileage may vary.

Phil153 · #9 03-14-2007, 12:55 AM

With further reflection on these numbers, it seems bad players are needed to make money here. My long terms stats show middle straight cards to be slightly profitable, but that's on Party where the players are just handing money away. On a site like Full Tilt or Stars I think calling a raise with these cards while short may be slightly unprofitable. More so if you lack good reads or aggression.

selurah · #10 03-14-2007, 11:31 AM

Fold pre. Man this is gross.