Wynn 10k Poker Classic Hand

[wpr101]

Very nice post. All of my thoughts have been said somewhere in the thread.

[Prime Time]

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FWIW, if the river was the 9 of clubs, and he led into me for 3,000, I would have shoved, and I am assuming he would have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, he could have just as easily had the 69 so forget about that argument.

The point you are not getting, is that you need to play as to minimize your errors and maximize the opponents mistakes.
Your turn involvement gets you into all sorts of trouble by not knowing if you are already drawing dead or not.

If you were the Villain in the BB and posted this hand, I would say you played perfectly, charging the draw on the turn and makeing a brilliant river bet.

So all I am trying to say, is that avoiding tuff spots like this is best when possible.

[Howard Treesong]

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Half of his draw is within the suited connector range of the 6,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely irrelevant. There was no raise before the flop, and villain checked in the BB, so any hand with a six in it is equally likely (assuming he wouldn't raise any of those hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

Duh. pwned.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, he could have just as easily had the 69 so forget about that argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't trying to make an argument. The reason I chose 9 instead of 8 is because I wouldn't raise in that spot with a hand that beats trips (straight). I was not trying to imply that 68 was any less likely than 69. HOWEVER, if he has either 6x or 6y (with equal probability), and the river is an x, then it's more likely he has 6y than 6x, although I wasn't even trying to make that point earlier.

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The point you are not getting, is that you need to play as to minimize your errors and maximize the opponents mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. I need to play to maximize my equity. Forget the fundamental theorem of poker. It doesn't apply very well to situations involving probabilities and ranges of hands.

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Your turn involvement gets you into all sorts of trouble by not knowing if you are already drawing dead or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of me drawing dead are low enough that I can still play the hand profitably.

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If you were the Villain in the BB and posted this hand, I would say you played perfectly, charging the draw on the turn and makeing a brilliant river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain played both the turn and river poorly.

[ QUOTE ]
So all I am trying to say, is that avoiding tuff spots like this is best when possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like good advice for a low stakes player with aspirations of becoming a break even tournament player. I'm not going to fold in a spot that I feel can be played profitably just because it will result in tough decisions later.

[hamnegger]

1. I hate the limp you are oop w a crap hand
2. i think all other plays are ok
3. raise on river is -ev def a bad play

[betgo]

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So all I am trying to say, is that avoiding tuff spots like this is best when possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like good advice for a low stakes player with aspirations of becoming a break even tournament player. I'm not going to fold in a spot that I feel can be played profitably just because it will result in tough decisions later.

[/ QUOTE ]
My objection is not that the hand is difficult to play. My objection is that it cannot be played profitably. You have 8 outs, as making a pair is not worth much. You can be drawing dead. An 8 can make someone else a higher straight. A club can make a flush. Any card can make a boat.

You describe villain as [ QUOTE ]
he looks like a tight solid professional or at least semi-professional player.


[/ QUOTE ]

This increases the chance he really has something and decreases the chance you have a large skill advantage over him.

It is possible you can play this situation profitably, but in general I don't think it is a profitable situation.

I would play this hand differently, probably folding 54s in early position, and as played checking the flop, as played folding to the checkraise, as played palyed folding the turn, and as played calling the river. Your approach may work for you, particularly with the large number of fish and weak/tight fish in major tournaments.

[urnodaisy]

I don't know about what the ordinary player like myself should do, but I have to think that a player at the highest skill level as Zee should just fold to the raise after the flop. Since it is still early in the tournament and he can be expected to outplay most on easier hands going forward, folding now post flop to the raise I would guess would be +EV for him. To me its similar to the problem of whether a world class player should fold aces on the first hand in a tournament to an all in. If you are a donk like me then maybe call it but if you are Zee why take the chance on this difficult hand when the stacks are so deep and your chance of outplaying others later in the tournament is so great. Sorry if this is a simplistic answer but it seems that so many excellent players commenting here differ on their approach to the hand that Zee should just pass and pick up his chips down the road rather than drawing or representing and risking losing to the boat. I think this is especially so after the turn card. I would be interested in knowing if Zee considered raising after the flop to, say, 750 instead of 400 and then folding to a 3bet+.

[wpr101]

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First of all, he could have just as easily had the 69 so forget about that argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't trying to make an argument. The reason I chose 9 instead of 8 is because I wouldn't raise in that spot with a hand that beats trips (straight). I was not trying to imply that 68 was any less likely than 69. HOWEVER, if he has either 6x or 6y (with equal probability), and the river is an x, then it's more likely he has 6y than 6x, although I wasn't even trying to make that point earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
The point you are not getting, is that you need to play as to minimize your errors and maximize the opponents mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. I need to play to maximize my equity. Forget the fundamental theorem of poker. It doesn't apply very well to situations involving probabilities and ranges of hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn involvement gets you into all sorts of trouble by not knowing if you are already drawing dead or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of me drawing dead are low enough that I can still play the hand profitably.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were the Villain in the BB and posted this hand, I would say you played perfectly, charging the draw on the turn and makeing a brilliant river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain played both the turn and river poorly.

[ QUOTE ]
So all I am trying to say, is that avoiding tuff spots like this is best when possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like good advice for a low stakes player with aspirations of becoming a break even tournament player. I'm not going to fold in a spot that I feel can be played profitably just because it will result in tough decisions later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Textbook PWN. nh.

[jaroot]

1) How do you like my play so far?
Preflop: Fine... if it's a passive table and you can see a cheapo flop w/ 54d.. do it.
Flop: Not a fan of that bet in a limp pot. You have no idea where anyone is at. I think w/ 54 you're really trying to flop the joint or make it at some point during the hand and 766 w/ 2 clubs there's no joint makin' in your future.
Turn: Bleh.. let it go dude. You got check raised on the the flop, you're up against a flush draw at the very least and probably against trips. Gotta muck here, unless you're willing to get fancy with bluffing the river if a club hits.
Still.. dangerous if we're putting him on trips here. Let it go [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
River: Well if you got this far, you just call his 3k bet since you hit your card. Raising would be horrible IMO. You may get a loose call from trip 6's.. but more than likely if you get called ur gonna get shown 67,or 77.. or 68,62 as well since he was in the BB.. could really have any two w/ a 6 in it.

[sheetsworld]

I just finished playing a live wsop circuit event where the play was worse than an 11 rebuy....so YES I can see it happening. People get very stubborn when they attempt to represent a hand, whther it be in live 10k events or 11$ rebuys...I am not saying it happens a lot, but it does happen.


sheets

p.s...obv i couldnt figure out how to post the quote that this response refers to it, so please ignore everything I just said as it will make no sense out of context.


sheets