Math Talent, Asperger's Syndrome,"Social Skills"

[Stuey]

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they'll ignore each other. part of their brain doesn't work properly and they do not naturally observe facial expressions or body language, thus missing out on the natural cues humans use to create and build rapport w/members of their group.

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Thanks for trying to explain it to me I understood this part at least. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So what can a dumb person like me say to these people to make them comfy when I see them? Is "I am going to say some dumb stuff now but I am just doing it so we both will feel more relaxed. Tell me to take off if you are busy thinking on something tho ok." any good?

I'm leaving this thread pretty sure I am bothering a few people already. lol

[Stuey]

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err, surely u noticed all the cool kids were dressed more stylishly than their social 'inferiors'? your attire demonstrates your degree of wealth and, more importantly, your relative degree of mastery over the culture you share w/your coevals. it is very important even in gr 5 and esp in gr 9.

unlikely you'll be a direct target unless you're someone who doesn't realise where they 'belong' on the totem. if you've misassessed your social value you will be ridiculed, often mercilessly.



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I seriously can't tell you who dressed nicer than me or worse than me when I was in grade 5. Around grade 8 and 9 maybe, for sure in grade 10. Some people were cleaner than others tho. I remember smelly kids getting teased.

I think we all remember different things selectively I am sure some kids thought about clothing at that age. I really find it hard to believe guys did tho. All the guys I knew just liked playing football, baseball ect. I guess that was how we set our pecking order. We even played with the smelly kids they were normally the best ones. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Phil153]

The majority of people who are good at math have just spent a lot of time and focus working on it. They often have one track minds that don't broaden well to deal with the complexities, uncertainties and feelings evoked by social interactions.

As for your comments about silly social rituals, there are ways to grease the wheels without doing anything stupid or demeaning. People with exception social skills prove that.

Math geeks are awkward because they don't grasp human emotion and the subtleties of social interaction. They're often ugly and lacking in confidence as well. It's comforting to believe that intelligence is the reason they're social cripples, but that's just not true. I was smarter than everyone in my college physics/math classes and had a good social life as well. There were others in my classes who were also intelligent and not socially awkward.

[Yo_Respek]

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What I am about to say is something that I believe most psychologists who study the subject agree with. But it is less well known among the general public. It has to do with why some science minded people and those who have a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, sometimes seem socially inept. It isn't because they are incapable of changing. It is because many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous. Obvious to them that is. Saying "God bless you", offering High Fives, asking "what's up" or "how are you" (when you obviously don't really care). Going crazy when ten strangers at your college win a basketball game.

Now I'm not talking about those poor souls who rarely shower, wear two different shoes, forget to zip up their fly or stuff like that. They miss those skills that are logical and obvious. But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind. Highly intelligent math types can't do that. They recognize how silly those little rituals are whether they want to or not. Others find it easier to suspend disbelief.

Now I understand that SOME rituals are helpful to grease conversations and avoid uncomfortable situations. Math geniuses realize this too. But that doesn't stop them from feeling a bit silly when they use them. Much sillier than the average Joe. On the other hand it is important to understand that the majority of math geniuses can learn these silly rituals if they find it imperative to do so. And get better at them than most who don't know math. Just
like almost everything else.

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This post is all ego. It's great that you have mastered the PROCESS of logic and math. Even so until you embrace and RESPECT other aspects of human intelligence like emotional intelligence you'll be like a human calculator.

We all know that we can buy a calculator at any convience store for a couple of bucks.

Thank you though for writing the best poker book ever written.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

It gets muddy when you go into detail, but if the person who is being a douche doesn't realize they are being one then it's hard to blame for being a douche. Even more so if after explaining to them why what the did was wierd they still can't see it.

I see what you're trying to say basically "they blame x for why they suck at Y, even though it's their own fault". I'd be more inclined to agree if being good at Y wasn't something EVERYONE wants to be good at. Also if it doesn't require a lot of effort what reason would someone not do it?

I don't think it's the same as someone saying their fat because they retain water or big boned. That person is giving an excuse for why they don't exercise (lots of effort) or overeat (give in to temptation). Some guy with AS really isn't doing either of those.

[andyfox]

"many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous."

How much of the behavior of math geniuses that you describe do you think is due to the obvious ridiculousness of dumber people, and how much do you think is due to the superiority complex that math geniuses develop in reaction to it?

[KUJustin]

I think a truly intelligent person would be able to see to the next level beyond dismissing all these social conventions and be able to easily see why things like saying "What's up?" or investing yourself emotionally in a sports team are reasonable and valuable.

It's the almost-smart person that views things the way you describe. Roughly equivalent to the guy who always knows enough to try to sound smarter than everyone else but not enough to avoid proving himself to be a complete idiot. I think we all have that friend.

[David Sklansky]

First, I lumped Asperger's and math talent together because there is a lot of overlap. But they are different. Asperger's patients have trouble relating to what others are feeling so that is part of their problem. But they share with the math geeks the feeling that many social conventions are artificially contrived with no logical basis behind them. And they thus feel uncomfortable using those conventions. But as I said, plenty of smart people decide to go with the flow until it eventually becomes almost as second nature to them as those who never thought about the silliness of many of those conventions.

[PairTheBoard]

I think it's a diservice to those with math/science ability to promote this stereotype of the socially retarded geek. I've associated with a lot of talented mathematicians and I've never seen this correlation with social retardation. I've found them to be bright, charming, and socially competent.

I've also known people with extraordinary social skills who have little talent in math. Their skills have to do with things like, empathy, making others feel comfortable, making others feel important, pursuading others, inspiring others, leading others, managing others, getting others to do what they want and feel good about it. I don't see much relationship between these kinds of things and the stuff David is talking about. I also don't see math ability being much help for these kinds of skills.

Different people have different talents.

PairTheBoard

[jogger08152]

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But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

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I suspect another reason is that intelligence sometimes crowds out wisdom, especially in young. (I'll elaborate below your second quote.)

There is plenty of other inductive evidence of this phenomenon, by the way. Here are a few recent examples that required genius+ level intellectual prowess coupled with a staggering lack of wisdom:

1. The creation of genetically modified corn and its introduction into agriculture in settings that allow the modified strains to be introduced into the wider world by insects, wind, and other natural forces
2. The manufacturing of (and possible genetic tampering with) smallpox weapons in the former Soviet Union after smallpox vaccination had ceased worldwide
3. A personal favorite of mine, the berating of fish by poker logicians who explain theory in detail at the table, including loud, expositive dissertations on how the fish utterly failed to apply sound poker principles with his abysmal play of the hand, and how he should expect to lose his ass if he keeps on playing this way, the stupid moron, how the hell could he possibly call two bets cold with that trash, didn't he know he was drawing to two outs that might not even be good if he hit them, etc.

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When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in.

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What you didn't realize at the time was that humans are social animals with strong hierarchical tendencies. Actually, if you had thought about it, you probably would have realized it; but your preference for "objective" activities (probably amplified by your ego telling you how much better and more logical were your preferences than those of your cohorts) interfered with your ability to recognize how this related to the problem you were faced with: you didn't submit to the common idea of what clothes were "right" at an age when this is important to humans, and you were castigated for it. The guy who decided what's in isn't irrelevant: he was directly relevant to you. You just didn't like it.

So the taunts pissed you off, but the fault (albeit unsurprising because of your age) was in you: your antagonists were stupid (by comparison to you) and you're smart by comparison to almost anybody, right? So shouldn't you either have ignored their taunts (who cares what lesser minds think?) or spent a few minutes perusing a J Crew (or equivalent) catalog and dressing to kill so that you could more easily manipulate them into treating you in a manner you'd have found more amenable.

The point is, there are sociological formulae that are almost mathematical in efficacy. Here, I'll prove it: Are you a guy who wants to get laid during your college years but haven't had much luck so far? Learn* to club dance. Work at home as scientifically as possible, but remember that it's perfectly fine "look like an idiot"** when you get on the floor. Do what you can to follow the beat of the music, and when in doubt, assume the more energetic your movements, the better.

Don't waste your time trying to figure out why dancing will get you laid. It probably has to do with some birdlike tendency in women to appreciate the vigorous mating gestures and obvious display of self-assuredness by the yadda yadda - but who cares? The point is it works. This is an applied science. Use it or don't, but don't piss and moan about it just because it doesn't fit with your preconceived view of how things "ought" to be.

Best regards,
Jogger

*I put "learn" in quotes because there are multiple ways to dance that will work fine. You don't need to be rigorous in your approach, and you won't really become proficient at anything substantive in any traditional, "hard" way.

**This is natural and actually helpful, as too much technical skill may look forced and can harm your chances of getting laid.