Tournament play and skill ?

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I consider to be tournament skill:

1. Survival. In a ring game, you will put all your chips in when you are a 55% favourite. In a tournament, a good player will not do this, especially when the blinds are low early on. If you pay attention to the good tourney players, you will realize that early on it is a rare event where all their chips are in the pot. A good tourney player has quoted that you cannot win a tourney early on but you sure can lose it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no great tourney player by any stretch but I think this is wrong.

I will happily get all my chips in in the early running if I think I am the favourite to win the hand.

I'd rather bust out early and save 2 hours of play only to get busted out just before the bubble for a good shot at accumulating a bigger stack.

Obv if you're playing a big live tourney or something you might want to forgo early races with minimal edges if you think you are better than your opposition and want time to make your edge in skill count for something.

For online tourneys where you can just go fire up another if you bust I'd rather push early edges cos if you can get to the middle game with a deep stack then so much the better.

Also early on all the calibre of villain is generally lower than the villain you come up against later on - I'd prefer it was me relieving them of their chips rather than the other good players.

[mvdgaag]

If there is a fast blind structure, like some online tournament, play like you would in a cashgame. If it is more slow, play more conservative. Doubling up in chips doesn't mean you double up in equity in price money! You need to survive and gather enough chips in the mean while to give you a shot at the money when the blinds and antes are kicking in.

[n4sty]

Hi, good post. I think Skill is a big factor in tourny's, but it's a differnt skill than in cash games.
In tourny's you gotta be thinking of blinds, M, other people's M, the money and all sorts of other things.
People generally overplay their hands which puts cash game players off as well. I think its just something you have to get used to, i'm in the same boat as you though so i hope im right!

[PorkchopDJG]

It's definitely a different set of skills.
At some point in a tourney you have to loosen up and play more hands, steal the blinds once in a while, and make some moves.
Basically you have to start accumulating chips because the real way to make big money is to make it to the final table not just cash. Now if the deck hits you in the face right away and you can accumulate chips great but if not you have to loosen up and deviate from typical tight cash game play or you won't last long.
Also structure matters. If it's a slow structure with big amount of starting chips and long rounds you can take your time and not have to get aggressive and make big moves right away. If the structure is fast with high blinds and short rounds you have to start making moves faster.

[Bullzeye]

Im not sure i aggree with POF's say on playing the big stack. I think when a player has a big stack he should stop taking so many chances and let the other players beat themselves. A player does not want to lose their big chip stack and drop down into the average stack with a mediocre hand. If someone has a great hand that they are not willing to fold,you will put a big dent on your chips stack by playing a mediocre hand in a bad situation.

Now, i am not saying the player should stop playing, but only reduce to the best hands:
1.AA
2.KK
3.QQ
4.AK
5.AQ
6.JJ
7.AJ
8.A-x suited
9. Pairs(tens-sixes)

This will keep u in the tourny a lot longer rather then taking chances would just because u have a big stack.

[Mauberly]

I won (2) tourneys w/$75 buy-ins and more than150 players last year. I do not consider myself great player but I almost always last deep into tourneys. I am very average at cash games.

-Never go all-in before the flop early in a tourney voluntarily. Obviousely, u have too call someone else's with the hand but don't come over the top, way too many fools.
-Play junk from late position early in the Tourn. esp. with weak raises. why not flop around when the blinds are 15-30 and you have 1500 or 2500 chips.
-If you don't steal, you starve.
-ALWAYS play a bIg stack like Gus Hanson. This answers your question directly. Going All-in with a hand that makes you 70% does not mean squat. If you do that 8 times against opponents who have you covered or about the same size stack then you will get busted. That is why understanding the Big stack/small stack is so important in tournaments. Small stacks are forced to go all-in with hands like K-9, Q-7, A-6, etc. If a small stack represents 20% of your stack and you are in proper position, you should be ready to call them down with any high card in yr hand. if youn lose 2 in a row pull back. But when u do this you can play your whole game off of it.
People won't raise in front of you unless they have the goods, they will play weak to your re-raises allowing way more stealing opps. because nobody, including the big stack wants to play another big stack.
Playing the Big stack means everything in tournament poker.
Bullseye could not be more wrong and I cannot stress it enough.
All Top Pro Tourney players say exactly the same thing. (Consevative early, steal blinds from the weak, get aggressive with the big stack.)
Why do exactly the opposite of Bulls-eye?
Play your solid game early(except when in position)because it is still poker. As the tournament gets to the last 1/3 open it up because u will be amazed at the crap hands u will be up against when its a small stack and try to win a bunch of those(often coin flips) smaller all-ins as opposed to the all-in against an equal stack. watch it grow force the small stacks to fold or putm it on the line. U always need some luck.

[aaokwitme]

What has not been mentioned here is the speed and structure of he tourney you are in. This is a crucial question to ask your self before you consider the question in the first place. QQ may be a great hand to push with or slow play or mid bet, it all depends on many different things. I just throwing out the reminder that we need to check the skill level (structure) we are talking about

[Bullzeye]

"All Top Pro Tourney players say exactly the same thing. (Consevative early, steal blinds from the weak, get aggressive with the big stack.)"

What Mauberly says is perfectly wrong and clearly does not watch that much poker. Almost all pros say to take many chances and play many hands in the beginning to enlarge your stack. This will help u go farther into the tournament. You will not be able to have any sort of impact in the tournament at all if u play too tight and the blinds start to eat your stack before u get a "great" hand.

Once u gain many chips and have a chip advantage then you begin to play on the conservitive side this way not losing your chip advantage on mediocre hands.

Mauberly says that the pros say to play conservitively in the beginning, then take chances later(when you have a high chip stack) I say the opposite. Who agrees?

[THAY3R]

You guys are both wrong.

Some of the replies in this thread are just downright awful.

[OpenWheel]

[ QUOTE ]
"All Top Pro Tourney players say exactly the same thing. (Consevative early, steal blinds from the weak, get aggressive with the big stack.)"

What Mauberly says is perfectly wrong and clearly does not watch that much poker. Almost all pros say to take many chances and play many hands in the beginning to enlarge your stack. This will help u go farther into the tournament. You will not be able to have any sort of impact in the tournament at all if u play too tight and the blinds start to eat your stack before u get a "great" hand.

Once u gain many chips and have a chip advantage then you begin to play on the conservitive side this way not losing your chip advantage on mediocre hands.

Mauberly says that the pros say to play conservitively in the beginning, then take chances later(when you have a high chip stack) I say the opposite. Who agrees?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Mauberly's statement (about conservative earlier, aggro with bigger stack. didn't read all of the rest.) jibes with what I thought I heard was correct in general.

Conservative early when the blinds are smaller relative to your stack, aggressive when you have a big stack since your chips have less value then the other guys with the smaller stacks so your odds are better. Pay attention to when the blinds are big enough relative to your stack that you have to make moves or else the blinds hurt you too much.

Something like that. And sure, try to steal blinds to maintain a chip position when you can instead of waiting for cards. That doesn't mean you aren't generally being more conservative early. Maybe blind stealing is also better near the money, when some folks get tighter, although everyone knows that strategy.