$6.5: Awkward spot with weak TP

Rythm · #1 03-09-2007, 07:23 PM

Hi STTF, I started playing some SnG's recently and I've gotten a decent feel for standard pushbotting scenarios by using SitNGo Wizard. Something that I'm having more trouble getting used to, partially because it has come up less frequently, is how to handle the difference between cEV and $EV when I'm forced to see a flop with a small stack near or on the bubble.

I'm mostly including the first hand because of the effect it had on the next hand, and that's why I've included the results as well.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t200/t400
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t2140
CO: t1335
Button: t1305
SB: t3060
Hero: t5660

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, SB calls t200 (pot was t600), Hero checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t800, 2 players)
SB bets t800, Hero raises all-in t5260, SB calls all-in t1860.
Uncalled bets: t2600 returned to Hero.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t6120, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t6120)

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t6120, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t6120)

Results:
Final pot: t6120
SB showed Ah 6h
Hero showed 5h 6c

After seeing this hand, can I get away from my TP in the next one? I'm a little lost in both hands, but it feels like second one might be really terrible.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t250/t500
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t305
Button: t2920
SB: t7175
Hero: t3100

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, SB calls t250 (pot was t750), Hero checks.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t1000, 2 players)
SB bets t1000, Hero raises all-in t2600, SB calls t1600 (pot was t4600).

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t6200, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t6200)

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t6200, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t6200)

Results:
Final pot: t6200

The reasons that I feel uncomfortable with this hand even though I'm pretty sure I have a decent cEV edge over his range is that I don't have much FE, if any, and obviously that UTG will be all-in in the BB next hand.

Beerocrat · #2 03-09-2007, 07:37 PM

You can't be pushing over a bet with these weak top pair horrid kicker hands. These are not hands to go to the felt with.

FeNeF · #3 03-09-2007, 07:39 PM

The first hand is fine. The second is very bad, busting here is a disaster because of the tiny stack. You're in great shape to make it ITM, don't throw it away like this.

gdsdiscgolfer · #4 03-09-2007, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The first hand is fine. The second is very bad, busting here is a disaster because of the tiny stack. You're in great shape to make it ITM, don't throw it away like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rythm · #5 03-09-2007, 07:53 PM

I suspected that might be the case. When the second hand took place I just couldn't stop thinking about his awful play in the first one, which is why I ended up shoving. How big of a cEV edge do we need in situations like this to turn it into a push? Would AT be a fold as well?

gdsdiscgolfer · #6 03-09-2007, 07:56 PM

You pretty much don't want to put chips in the pot at that spot. UTG has 1.2x BB's, wait for him to bust.

FeNeF · #7 03-09-2007, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I suspected that might be the case. When the second hand took place I just couldn't stop thinking about his awful play in the first one, which is why I ended up shoving. How big of a cEV edge do we need in situations like this to turn it into a push? Would AT be a fold as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
AT would be a tough spot. Getting it in would suck for us if he has some sort of draw, but he could be drawing next to dead for all we know. Fold to avoid life tilt when 78o gets there?

donkeykong2 · #8 03-09-2007, 08:07 PM

i think hand 1 is played ok. hand 2 u have a problem because shorty is so small. i dont think it is horrible though. it is pretty likely that the sb just tries to take advantage of the situation and is betting with any garbage here though he basicly should have pushed preflop. it s read dependend i think.

Onyyn · #9 03-10-2007, 12:35 AM

You got SB to call 3/5ths of his stack off with air and dead to 3 cards, and even not knowing his hand, this wasn't a terrible play. You're against one or two pair and/or a flush draw more often than a straight here.

The second hand is completely wrong - with the short stack about to die, there's almost no reason to play any hand unless it's premium preflop, or the nuts or close to it post flop. Any thin gamble can't possibly be right against your $EV with him that low. Let him bust, then get involved.

rider_1 · #10 03-10-2007, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first hand is fine. The second is very bad, busting here is a disaster because of the tiny stack. You're in great shape to make it ITM, don't throw it away like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^^That.
You've just done a HUGE favor to the shorty. His presence on the bubble makes the 2nd hand an easy fold.