Apathy style theory question SSNL version - Checking flop in the blind - Page 3

The White Rabbit · #21 03-08-2007, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You lose ev by always checking, I'm guessing more than people think at SSNL

[/ QUOTE ]
def. not because most SSNL villains are ALWAYS cbetting.

RiverFenix · #22 03-08-2007, 11:38 PM

If youre hitting a set ~10% of the time and are forced to check I'm probably c/r 25% of the time or so. With LP raisers you can make more plays at scary boards. Against weaker TAGs you can c/r representing your missed set. It really helps to have solid reads and know whether that turn is a good 2nd barrel card or you should give up.

I'm never rarely continuing by just c/c a cbet with w/ my missed PP unless I have the possibility of bluffing a super obvious FD or I know the PFR will shut down a lot and give up to moderate strength.

General line with flop set depends three major things to me: how scary the board is to me, how likely my opponent is to have TPGK or overpair, and aggro level of opponent. If I believe the second factor is high then I'm leading a solid amount. The other two factors make me more inclined to c/r as on scary boards I can put on a premium charge and get ai on turn and if theyre aggro I expect them to be firing at least one cbet. If theyre super aggro I think (and I may be wrong), but its better to wait until the turn to c/r as they become more commited. However thats a tradeoff as theyre going to be less inclined to felt the TPish type hands. Tough balance but thats sort of my gist on it.

RiverFenix · #23 03-08-2007, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You lose ev by always checking, I'm guessing more than people think at SSNL

[/ QUOTE ]
def. not because most SSNL villains are ALWAYS cbetting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think youre overestimating how often the entire range of villians cbet. Especially using the words always. I would be quite surprised if the entire spectrum of PFRs have a cbet % higher than 60%. I'm not sure if there is an easy way to get this out of pokertracker but I'm sure someone could write up a queue to pull it out of any database pretty easily.

Isura · #24 03-09-2007, 01:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]

How much, if any, EV are you sacrificing by always 100% of the time checking the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a ton. This is even more true HU. My favorite HU opponent is one that autochecks every floop.

Isura · #25 03-09-2007, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You lose ev by always checking, I'm guessing more than people think at SSNL

[/ QUOTE ]
def. not because most SSNL villains are ALWAYS cbetting.

[/ QUOTE ]

More generally, checking always is not usually exploited because the in position player rarely adjusts correctly.

BalugaWhale · #26 03-09-2007, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I think a ton. This is even more true HU. My favorite HU opponent is one that autochecks every floop.

[/ QUOTE ]
even if he checkraises frequently?

Isura · #27 03-09-2007, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think a ton. This is even more true HU. My favorite HU opponent is one that autochecks every floop.

[/ QUOTE ]
even if he checkraises frequently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. THat is not that big a deal when we have position. I'm not c-betting every flop or anything. Just mix up your lines against such a player.

Isura · #28 03-09-2007, 02:21 AM

Also, it costs so much more to c/r, and then you have to decide on appropriate frequencies to fire the turn.

Apathy · #29 03-09-2007, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont see how you could say always 100% of the time.. like if you spike a set, or two pair, on a draw heavy board, how do you not lead out.

[/ QUOTE ]
If villain cbets 100% of the time, leading out is terrible independent of your holding and the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually thats exactly what one my posts was about and the end result of the thread seems to be that even when someone c-bets 100% of the time you should still lead some hands.