seeking value on river

djmeehan · #1 03-08-2007, 08:08 PM

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (4 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks?, Button checks.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

In this pot the button is quite loose at 54/17 and passive postflop with total AF of 0.6. The button was a totally loose passive fish (70/5/.3) who just check called down any pair or any draw, only betting strong made hands like 2 pair or better. Every time I was in a pot with these 2 I felt like I was being hunted just waiting to get sucked out on.

When the button raised I figured he likely had an ace as well (he loved calling raises with hands like A6o) and it was a split pot if I didnt improve to 2 pair or a flush. He had a little play in him though and could possibly have had second pair or a draw and think I had nothing. The BB range was so huge I couldn't narrow it down much and figured he could have anything from no pair/no draw to top pair decent kicker. By the river I wasn't sure if my hand was good anymore since I was outkicked by even A6o. I also thought the button would check down a marginal ace that still beat me.

Am I missing value here? Is this a bet/fold, bet call, check call?

Guruman · #2 03-08-2007, 08:15 PM

this is a tough spot for me pf without a read on the other players. I could see folding it or raising it.

when button raises the flop and then goess into calldown mode I think you have a clear valuebet into the two scattershooters on the river, and probably a clear fold if you get raised as well. You'll get called by literally any pair, any pocket pair, and somtimess unimproved Ks and Qs.

milesdyson · #3 03-08-2007, 08:27 PM

Instaraise for me preflop. If button is a totally passive fish who only bets strong made hands like 2 pair or better, there's little value in the flop 3-bet 3-way.

Nick C · #4 03-08-2007, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If button is a totally passive fish who only bets strong made hands like 2 pair or better, there's little value in the flop 3-bet 3-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was confused at first too, but I think that super-passive read is actually for BB. The Button is generally loose-passive as well but "with a little play in him."

milesdyson · #5 03-08-2007, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Every time I was in a pot with these 2 I felt like I was being hunted just waiting to get sucked out on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol.

djmeehan · #6 03-08-2007, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If button is a totally passive fish who only bets strong made hands like 2 pair or better, there's little value in the flop 3-bet 3-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was confused at first too, but I think that super-passive read is actually for BB. The Button is generally loose-passive as well but "with a little play in him."

[/ QUOTE ]

You got it right Nick I wrote button twice by mistake. Button was loose and passive with a little play, BB was total loose passive fish.

Nick C · #7 03-08-2007, 09:01 PM

If you're right that Button is often going to check an ace behind you on the river, then I think the main case for a bet is simply that you'll probably get two calls when you are best since BB chases and shows down so light.

Given that you got popped on the flop, though, I doubt your hand is going to be best a majority of the time or anything. So if you bet, what's frequently going to happen is that you'll get called and you'll lose (and will sometimes even discover that your hand was third best).

I guess I'm saying I don't have a strong opinion on this one. The case for betting though is that it sounds like there's not much fear of getting popped by a worse hand (so you can fold if raised) and also it sounds like you'll often get 2:1 on a bet. But if this is a value bet, it's an incredibly thin one that's based on the ideas that (1) you're basically never getting raised by a worse hand but nevertheless you can't trust a mere bet from Button enough that you can simply check and fold if he bets, and (2) you'll have the best hand a decent chunk of the time (like, at least 35 percent), and (3) you'll get called twice a lot.

Anyway, at the table against these guys, I think I'd check and call (unless BB checkraised, of course) and not think much about it.