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#1
03-08-2007, 04:39 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
If you keep political ideology out of the state... how do you still have a state? Minimum wage - political ideology discussion. Invading a country - political ideology discussion.
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#2
03-08-2007, 04:57 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
If you keep political ideology out of the state... how do you still have a state? Minimum wage - political ideology discussion. Invading a country - political ideology discussion. [/ QUOTE ] Right - there should not be a state. Just how we have different houses of worship with no forced inclusion, so we should treat political ideology the same. If you want to join a socialist kibbutz, fine. You want to pay high taxes for certain services, fine. You want to live in freedom, fine. etc. The question is when does one ideology have the right to take control of a central system of exclusive control such as the government. My answer is it doesn't for the same reasons a specific religious ideology has no right to invade a central system like government
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#3
03-08-2007, 05:31 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If you keep political ideology out of the state... how do you still have a state? Minimum wage - political ideology discussion. Invading a country - political ideology discussion. [/ QUOTE ] Right - there should not be a state. Just how we have different houses of worship with no forced inclusion, so we should treat political ideology the same. If you want to join a socialist kibbutz, fine. You want to pay high taxes for certain services, fine. You want to live in freedom, fine. etc. The question is when does one ideology have the right to take control of a central system of exclusive control such as the government. My answer is it doesn't for the same reasons a specific religious ideology has no right to invade a central system like government [/ QUOTE ] Nobody is forcing you to retain the citizenship you were born with. If you think the political ideology of another country is better, then move there. If you want to enjoy the prosperity that that liberal democracy has brought us, then you have to accept some of its coercive elements as well. BTW, I don't understand your apparent differentiation between "state" and "government".
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#4
03-08-2007, 06:00 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you keep political ideology out of the state... how do you still have a state? Minimum wage - political ideology discussion. Invading a country - political ideology discussion. [/ QUOTE ] Right - there should not be a state. Just how we have different houses of worship with no forced inclusion, so we should treat political ideology the same. If you want to join a socialist kibbutz, fine. You want to pay high taxes for certain services, fine. You want to live in freedom, fine. etc. The question is when does one ideology have the right to take control of a central system of exclusive control such as the government. My answer is it doesn't for the same reasons a specific religious ideology has no right to invade a central system like government [/ QUOTE ] Nobody is forcing you to retain the citizenship you were born with. If you think the political ideology of another country is better, then move there. If you want to enjoy the prosperity that that liberal democracy has brought us, then you have to accept some of its coercive elements as well. BTW, I don't understand your apparent differentiation between "state" and "government". [/ QUOTE ] well government can be entirely voluntary and a state cannot be. I probably should have used the word "state" in some places instead of "government" but that was just a mistake. Also, inter state competition is minimal at best on top of the high costs of switching systems. Regardless, none of this refutes my contention of what ought to be nor explains why the system negates one thing for a certain principle which is not consistently applied.
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#5
03-08-2007, 06:26 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is forcing you to retain the citizenship you were born with. [/ QUOTE ] Well, unless you make a significant amount of money. Then the IRS will do everything in its power to prevent you from renouncing. [ QUOTE ] If you think the political ideology of another country is better, then move there. [/ QUOTE ] This presupposes that the government in question trumps the inviduals property rights. Target doesn't tell me to move outside of their jurisdiction if I wish to shop at Wal-Mart. In fact, I can patronize both without any conflict. [ QUOTE ] If you want to enjoy the prosperity that that liberal democracy has brought us, then you have to accept some of its coercive elements as well. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure if this is a self-contradictory statement, a self-evident statement, or a threat. If I want to enjoy X, which is provided by Y, and Y also provides Z, then it's obvious that if I agree to Y that I am accepting both X and Z. On the other hand, it's *not* obvious that I *must* accept Z in order to get X. I see no proof that you cannot get X without Z. Z cannot be involuntarily imposed if X is voluntarily selected and X and Z are part of a package deal. Either I'm agreeing to X *and* Z, or I'm not. It can't be voluntary and involuntary at the same time. So the alternative in this case to avoid such a contradiction must be that X and Z are not inseperable. On the other other hand, this could be a threat; "accept our terms or we will starve you to death." Please clarify.
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#6
03-08-2007, 06:46 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If you think the political ideology of another country is better, then move there. [/ QUOTE ] This presupposes that the government in question trumps the inviduals property rights. Target doesn't tell me to move outside of their jurisdiction if I wish to shop at Wal-Mart. In fact, I can patronize both without any conflict. [/ QUOTE ] The OP was comparing politics to religion, not consumer preferences. And indeed, you CAN'T "patronize" two religions without conflict. It is true that our political structures are still largely based in physical geography, which is perhaps outdated. But I don't really see how property rights has anything to do with this. You can still own property in the US and be a citizen of another country. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you want to enjoy the prosperity that that liberal democracy has brought us, then you have to accept some of its coercive elements as well. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure if this is a self-contradictory statement, a self-evident statement, or a threat. If I want to enjoy X, which is provided by Y, and Y also provides Z, then it's obvious that if I agree to Y that I am accepting both X and Z. On the other hand, it's *not* obvious that I *must* accept Z in order to get X. I see no proof that you cannot get X without Z. Z cannot be involuntarily imposed if X is voluntarily selected and X and Z are part of a package deal. Either I'm agreeing to X *and* Z, or I'm not. It can't be voluntary and involuntary at the same time. So the alternative in this case to avoid such a contradiction must be that X and Z are not inseperable. On the other other hand, this could be a threat; "accept our terms or we will starve you to death." Please clarify. [/ QUOTE ] I am stating that you cannot get X without Z. If you can find a political system that generates the same sort of prosperity without coercion, then go for it. I know many people on this board would disagree with this, but I don't think it can be found.
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#7
03-08-2007, 06:53 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
The OP was comparing politics to religion, not consumer preferences. [/ QUOTE ] So? The discussion is limited to those parameters? [ QUOTE ] And indeed, you CAN'T "patronize" two religions without conflict. [/ QUOTE ]  http://jewsforjesus.org/ [ QUOTE ] It is true that our political structures are still largely based in physical geography, which is perhaps outdated. But I don't really see how property rights has anything to do with this. You can still own property in the US and be a citizen of another country. [/ QUOTE ] Does being a citizen of another country exempt me from US law? [ QUOTE ] I am stating that you cannot get X without Z. [/ QUOTE ] Then it's either voluntarily accepted, whole hog, or not. [ QUOTE ] If you can find a political system that generates the same sort of prosperity without coercion, then go for it. I know many people on this board would disagree with this, but I don't think it can be found. [/ QUOTE ] So in the meantime, it's OK for whatever you've decided is best in your subjective opinion to be imposed upon everyone else?
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#8
03-08-2007, 04:59 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
If you keep political ideology out of the state... how do you still have a state? Minimum wage - political ideology discussion. Invading a country - political ideology discussion. [/ QUOTE ] I too would like to know what the OP is trying to say. How do you keep politics out of...er...politics?
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#9
03-08-2007, 05:05 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If you keep political ideology out of the state... how do you still have a state? Minimum wage - political ideology discussion. Invading a country - political ideology discussion. [/ QUOTE ] I too would like to know what the OP is trying to say. How do you keep politics out of...er...politics? [/ QUOTE ] My point is that there is some hypocrisy in the treatment of religion and politics. When people advocate the popular idea like we should keep religion and state separate, they're essentially saying that they believe subjective ideology should be kept out of a central system that effects everyone especially when there are no rights to cessation. Im saying this is something that applies to all ideology, not just that which is linked to a deity.
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#10
03-08-2007, 05:15 PM
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Re: Religious Ideology versus Political Ideology: What\'s the differenc
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that there is some hypocrisy in the treatment of religion and politics. When people advocate the popular idea like we should keep religion and state separate, they're essentially saying that they believe subjective ideology should be kept out of a central system that effects everyone especially when there are no rights to cessation. Im saying this is something that applies to all ideology, not just that which is linked to a deity. [/ QUOTE ] There is some truth to this. I think the distinction comes where you define the *purpose* of the state. That definition is different in every country. In America, a state was explicitly created which sought to eliminate religious interference. Just like its powers were otherwise enumerated (and later bastardized).
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Hybrid Mode
