1 hand from the wynn 3k event today

[MrTimCaum]

[ QUOTE ]

In addition, I also do not like preflop raise at all this deep. The blinds are not worth stealing, you don't want to be known as a blind stealer at this level, why inflate the pot OOP? You have a good hand to see a flop with, see the flop.

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I didn't mention anything about this, but yeah, this is my reasoning for pf. I don't open raise out of the SB very often.

[yellowdoyle]

MTC,

On river I think I would check call. Perhaps you have induced a bluff raise here, but the cost of c/c is < b/c and your hand is not terribly strong.

The fact that he is thinking on multiple levels makes me inclined to call river as played. But I still prefer the c/c line.

[MrTimCaum]

well, as I had hoped, I induced a raise out of him with my river bet. UNFORTUNATELY, I induced a raise from 26o and paid off the best hand. oops. as most people have told me that discussed the hand with me on aim, this is too fps-y and I should just go with the default cc river line.


it wasn't all bad though because i got my chips back from him 4-betting AJs pf a few minutes later [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MrTimCaum]

I finally got around to typing out the more detailed version of my thought process as the hand transpired, that I somewhat explained in my first reply:

Something I often do early in tournaments is the first time the SB open completes and I check in the BB, I'll almost always float him if he bets the flop to see how he'll react on the turn, so that when the stacks are more shallow in later rounds, I'll know if I can or cannot get away floating and I won't have to risk a higher % of my chips to find out. I feel like a lot of other good, thinking players do this as well, although I've never seen it discussed and I could be completely wrong.


As he called the flop bet, I thought that there was a good chance I was getting floated, so I decided to take an fps-y line, one where I would try and make him bluff raise the river if the draw missed. If he did float me on the flop, he'd definitely bet the turn to try and take the pot down (he'd almost certainly bet a real hand for value too), and I would call quickly, hoping he'd immediately put me on a draw. If the draw missed, I'd lead strong in an attempt to get him to once again put me on a draw. Since I believed he was floating the flop a good percentage of the time, he could bluff raise the river if my attempt to get him to believe that I was drawing worked. Basically that whole plan was instantly hatched in my head as he was picking off the 4 green chips off his stack to call my flop bet. It's pretty crazy to think about the amount of thought that goes into every action we make in a hand, and how quickly we can properly analyze all the factors that go into making these decisions.

I just thought of it as an alternative from the default line of bet flop, bet turn, and bet/fold or check/call the river and get huge value out of a good but not great hand in a spot where I felt that a large percentage of his range were hands that floated the flop. If he did have one of these hands and I went for the default check/call river line, he'd probably give up and check behind, and I feel like this was a way to get a bunch of money in the pot on the river. Of course there are times where he is going to be raising the river for value, but I chop with several of these holdings, so it's not always a disaster when he makes a raise with a real hand. Although, it is quite possible he'd raise the flop if he had a pair of kings, so I'm not sure if that line of reasoning works.

I've been playing a tremendous volume of 1/2 and 2/4NL (about 50k hands since the start of Feb - about 90% at 1/2, but I'm close to making it back to 2/4 full time for the first time in months, thank god), and I'm trying my best to take more creative lines with medium strength hands against the solid, thinking, winning regulars in the games because I felt like my play in January was very uninspired and lazy, taking the easy line that wins me the pot when I should be taking the line that wins me the most money in the long run but might put me to a tough decision. This hand was a result of that decision to make an effort to stop taking the default lines over and over again.

Looking back, check/calling the river may have been the optimal play, but I'm not upset at all with my decision to play this hand differently than I normally would.

Now that I've finally typed out all of my reasoning for the decisions I made, I'm interested to hear what holes exist in my rationale.

[RoccoTerrier]

I would at least consider a big preflop raise.

[0evg0]

i agree with everything you've said here MTC, and the detail of your process is exactly what you kind of have in the back of your head but (at least i) have a hard time putting into words like you did.

good job, wp, nh, etc

[MrTimCaum]

[ QUOTE ]
I would at least consider a big preflop raise.

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I play a lot differently than most when opening in the SB. It's something gobbo and I talked about for a while at the PCA but is for another thread.

[NYWalker]

I would bet flop, check/call turn, check/call river. (check/Fold to a big bet on the river.)

Just look for showdown at minimium cost. No need to lose a lot of money in a "nothing" pot - unraised two way pot.

[skier_5]

I really like the open limp sb and the floating the sb open limp idea. I know it sounds stupid, but I feel that I never really play a hand with the primary purpose of getting a read. It's an interesting concept - especially for tournaments.

Anyways, I like your thought process throughout the hand and just have a couple of comments/ideas that I would like to add. I think that your line will work very well against certain players that you have a read on, but in general it expects to much from your opponent. Especially this opponent that checked a flush draw in position at least once and where everyone checked to him twice. I wouldn't expect him to be overly aggressive. Also, I think that if you want to represent a hand on this river, I think you should try to represent a weak made hand since any opponent that can come to this conclusion should realize that you are not c/cing that turn with a draw (I'd venture out and say that I would expect you to lead that turn every time with a draw here without knowing anything about your play). I think that the size of your river bet is too large to induce a bluff raise since it will be fairly expensive to him and you have shown a lot of strength - I think around 3-400 is much better here.

As played the river is such a tempting call, but I think you get shown 2x here a lot.

[skier_5]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet flop, check/call turn, check/call river. (check/Fold to a big bet on the river.)

Just look for showdown at minimium cost. No need to lose a lot of money in a "nothing" pot - unraised two way pot.

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I completely disagree with this statement for like 8 million reasons that I'm too lazy to list.