Showing Hands. Rule interpretation HELP!!?

[DavidNB]

I am trying to help the guy out. He is playing at someone elses house who may or may not be twisiting rules. I'm not interested in dealing with whether the rules are bcorrect or not.

I am trying to provide a helpful hint on how to deal with this if it happens again. The OP has indicated there is a history behind this and rather then get in a pissing match with the host I have given him a very easy out.

Perhaps you should sit back and watch and learn.

[pfapfap]

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If you're gonna get all reasonable and logical with your advice, we're going to have to ask you to leave.

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My apologies. What I mean to post was lolerz holla balla. Do you see why?

David, just coincidence yours was at the end; didn't intend to slight your advice, which is definitely one solution, one that brings this non-issue to a head. And yeah, completely agree that the OP's method of flipping over and then asking to see against someone with a known history was a fabricated scenario by the OP intended to give him something about which to complain.

"Doctor, it hurts when I bend my arm!" "Then don't bend your arm."

[Lottery Larry]

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Perhaps you should sit back and watch and learn.

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pfap's Quick Reply wasn't intended for you, David. That's why I hate that option- it confuses things if you aren't careful.

[DavidNB]

oops , sorry guys.

[Hammerhead]

Thanks guys, all of you, even the ones that accused me of having reading comprehension problems.

Ok, well I'm wrong, I'm dead wrong. I've emailed him an apology and followed up with a phone call, I'm even going to bring some pie to the game and call it humble pie. I'll take a big slice.

Trust me, I've analyzed this game to death and tried to get him to do the same. The games good, he's a decent player who is trying to be better, but the downside is, he's a horrible host and he has no desire to change. He makes it clear that this isnt a democracy its an aristocracy and it doesnt matter what we think or say (He's actually came out and said this.) There is a game tonight. He is the only one that has signed up. I've pointed him to Wallace and tried to get him to think about the big picture about relaxing a bit and let others do the same, The frustrating part of this equation is, he's killing the game, the only guys that play now are hardcore players with few options, all the easy money has long left. I still earn on average probably 4bb/hr still, but the potential to have a fantastic game is already there or was, I just wish he'd realize that yes, he's right in the short run, but wrong in the long run. Last year, he gave me his database and we only had 65 players on at the time, (we have over 300 now) I called and surveyed them as a favor to him to find out why they arent attending. 80% said because, the game is dry, stuffy, too serious, and they didnt really feel welcome by the host. By him being ultra anal about everything it's killing the game. So yes, he wins the rules battles, but he's losing the war. I do host a game and it stays full a week in advance and usually with a waiting list to get in, everyone prefers to play at my house, the problem is, I can only host once a week, where he is hosting 3-4. He's not going to change, I've tried as hard as I can to try to make him see that his antics hurts the game, it doesnt protect it.

So I'm wrong about the rules. I immediately called him up and appologized profusely.

I play because it's the only game close to me. I'm a mod on his forum and have as many posts as him, with my posts providing real content, not just bad beats or pissing contests, I help recruit players, I try to help sustain players, but the bottom line is, people don't like him, so we have lots of players that play one time or twice and Never return, Of course when the host doesnt say a single word to you the entire night and then when he finally does its an admonishment for breaking some little nitty rule, or the new guy hears him launch an attack on a regular, it's a major turnoff, it's easily apparent to everyone but him, that is the cause for our game being so dry. I played there 4 times before he ever said 20 words to me and all of us new guys would go on break (I was at his first game)and say is it just me or does ralph making you feel unwelcome? A resounding yes. And this was over a year ago, I've came to every game with the intent to try to help people feel welcome, to go out of my way to DO his job, because he was unable to, and I wanted a regular game. So yea, i do feel like I have a vested interest in this game.

BTW- He said that robert ciccioane agreed with his ruling that an all in on the turn, means its the same as check check on the river since the next card is a new betting round, and I would have to show first if I was OOP. Regardless of the fact if I called him all in on the turn. This doesn't make sense! Does it? I could have sworn he was wrong about that and it appears others here think likewise on that point.

[DavidNB]

Every game is different. I host a game where a player does a few things, within the rules but still????

After the river and all bets and he is first to act, he waits and looks at the other player. This usually causes the other player to flip over their hand and he would just muck his if beaten.

[Hammerhead]

Well it seems that our host emailed Bob Ciaffone, and then posted the incomplete information and I hastily apologized. (see what I'm dealing with now?) The host ommited this part of his conversation with bob. Which bob graciously emailed to me in its entirety.

BB player wants Button player to show first at showdown, as the BB called the Button's last bet (on the turn).

Button player contends that there was no action on the river, so the rules state the the BB shows first as he is left of the dealer button.

Who is right?
Bob- The rules say this is a check-check on the river situation, so the left of the button shows first. My suggestion would be to ask your group if they would be willing to turn both hands faceup in this situation in the future, just as if it is a tournament.


By the way, we have a known house rule at my home games that no player has the right to ask to see a mucked hand (contrary to your rule in Robert's Rules of Poker). But BB still thinks he has the right to see the mucked hand because he asked to see it before he showed his cards.

Bob- I agree with BB. this request should take precedence over the rule about mucked hands.

So yea, its petty, but I was right, the part about the river being a check check situation is correct, it reverts back to the order of the cards and you show according to your sitting arrangement in relation to the button.

[Hammerhead]

Where's all the smarty pant's replies now?
So it appears that almost everyone was wrong. The thing they thought I was right about I was actually wrong about, the thing they thought I was wrong about, I was actually right about. Funny eh? Next Time, I'll just ask Bob. Just Kidding, I appreciate the effort anyway.

[pfapfap]

Dude, my head is spinning. You remind me of me ten years ago, when I'd get way too worked up and focused on things, bouncing from one extreme to another. Wait, did I say ten years? I meant ten days. Minutes. Point is, I think I understand a bit of your mentality.

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Ok, well I'm wrong, I'm dead wrong. I've emailed him an apology and followed up with a phone call, I'm even going to bring some pie to the game and call it humble pie. I'll take a big slice.

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Way way way too far in the other extreme. Relaaaaax. You're being very un-Dude.

Maybe I'm mistaken about your original situation, but even from your recent posts, it looks like you were a little right, and the other guy was a little right. In the end, though, would you rather be right or happy? I'm a little confused on the description and explanation of the request for the mucked hand, and I'm not sure if Bob's answer is what you think it is.

Regardless, it doesn't matter, and my original points remain. I agree with you 100% that you have a situation of a game being killed by the host, but I don't think there's much you can do about it, and I certainly don't think this one particular hand is the sword on which you want to fall.

[Hammerhead]

I know, and I appreciate it, It's just well, theres a lot of history about this form of angle shooting he employs on a daily basis and has for the last year, and I did cause quite a stir when I called him out on it, But on the same token I was a big enough man, to admit my mistake. Of course it appears I'm the only one willing to do that. I've also nixed the idea of eating any humble pie. Since it appears I was right about what really mattered, him showing his hand, in what order really didnt matter that much to me.. thanks bro for the helpful advice, I've been trying hard to keep this game alive and help him make it better by relaxing, it appears that this game is on life support. But, It's all good, I'm sleeping well at night now.