Raise on the flop - wrong move?

[DexterJoe]

This hand has been bothering me - the opponent and another player said it was a bad play. I put the "villain" on a weak hand, maybe a middle pair or pairing the K on the flop. He had been raising with any decent hand and from the button and cutoff. I was surprised when he just called the BB pre-flop. I was on the button, raised on the flop after the villain checked - was that the wrong move?

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1.1/$2.2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4SB, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, CO calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2BB, 2 players)
CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2BB, 2 players)
CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 2BB
CO showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero mucks 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I thought I made him make a mistake when he called my raise and the flop. I cannot figure how the pot or implied odds make this a good bet on his part, or on the turn. If I just called it down, I can't see how he would have folded in any case. Maybe he thought I was raising with the flush draw?

[Pondy]

Next time dont post the results. However you've flopped a top pair with weak kicker. He called your raise, so probably should of check called this down.

edit:- Yes, the raise on the flop is fine.

At this level he's not going away with that hand unless its a multiway, even then he'll probably stick around.

[seano34]

the converter doesnt seem to be working right

3SB to the flop

3.5BB to the turn

5.5bb to the river

9.5bb final pot

I think the flop raise is OK.

I play the turn the same, but I check the river through as Co is going to show this down after calling the turn and is going to call with a better hand (or raise at it was) and you are only ahead of A3 or a smaller pocket pair.

CO's call on the turn was the bad play.

[martybonus]

actually, depending on the table i'd not limp this hand at all. if it's a tight, fairly aggressive table i'd just fold it and any suited ace less than A9s. And i'd raise A9s from the button and perhaps even open-raise with it in MP.

if it' a loose table, your call is fine but be prepared to fold this hand on the flop unimproved.

Against aggressive players, I like the raise here.

Againt passive players, TPnK is at best a call-down.

When passive players bet, it tends to be something real. These are the guys who call down with bottom pair. If they bet out, it's probably advertising real strength.

If your flop raise was to protect your hand, forget about it. You're not going to get anyone with a better hand to fold anyway. Raise for value and to encourage incorrect calls by people with drawing hands who lack discipline. Don't try to raise to knock people off their hands. This is a mistake i've made countless times.

So your flop raise depends on the players. I'd do it against aggressive players for value as they might be betting with mid-pair and because a 3bet would be a cue to think about folding. against passive players, a call would be enough.

However, as played you're pretty much stuck with calling down. HU your TPnK might in fact win. You might get out-kickered but you might beat a rag king.

check behind on the river, there's no reason to bet here and as it hapens you played right into his c/r.

[fretelöo]

I'll have to disagree and say betting that river is pretty much forced everytime you plan on playing such a hand. Villains action indicates Kx and you have to make him pay here.

OP: Giving results sucks and sceweres responses. You'll not be liked very much around here if you do that all too often. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Marty, Hero limped behind CO's open-limp. That's pretty much the ideal scenario. Not quite ideally ideal because you'd like another couple of limpers before CO so as to really milk your FD-boards, but given that you got CO, folding is absurd and raising is bull - especially if you don't know how loose/bad/TAG/aggro CO actually is. You limp along, hope that the blinds come for the ride as well and hit your flush.

Flop is a raise probably always, no matter of aggro or passive players. A passive player might bet a K here or might bet a FD here, so you have to make 'em pay. Also, with your weak TP, you really don't hate it if BB folds.

"Protecting" doesn't mean that you want better hands to fold (that's not what protecting your hand is about at all!). It means that you want one-spade hands to fold, JT-type of hands that might improve to a str8 etc. You want all that crap that might suck out on you to fold. You don't want to win a 20BB pot because you miracoulsy steer through a myriad of straight- 2pr, (potential) trips and flushdraws with your crap pair. You're quite pleased to take down a 4BB pot on the turn. A raise is not to "encourage incorrect calls". You just about NEVER try to encourage incorrect calls, and definitely not with such a weak made hand. A raise is precicely to discourage them to draw to their bd-draws.
A raise DOES protect here and is pretty much forced if you plan on playing this hand at all.

[Hoskinator]

I would think twice about limping in with A 4 suited with only one caller. If you are hoping to win the hand with just your ace you are on slightly shaky ground. You could perhaps raise with it to scare people off if you are going to steal the blind and bully the limper off.

how do you know anyone else doesn't have a flush draw or Ace with better kicker on the flop. Although I think your play here works because the CO only calls and then just checks on the turn so betting here could well have knocked him out.

if you think you have him beat on the river I don't mind the bet because sometimes people fold here. You could have checked because you had a weak kicker.

I think you were a bit unlucky really in this instance. I also think you may run into more "bad" luck by betting weak aces in the future

[martybonus]

right, i can't seem to get my head around these [censored] protection raises and it's starting to piss me off.

SSHE has bloody little to say about it as well - just one section on protecting in big pots with marginal hands. And it's not a particularly clear section IMO.

Would appreciate any help clarifying this.

When we raise to protect there are four possible outcomes:
1) villain folds correctly (a weaker hand)
2) v folds incorrectly ( a stronger hand)
3) v calls correctly (a stronger hand)
4) v calls incorrectly (a weaker hand).

I have been told time and time again that 4) is NOT a bad thing. This is why we like passive villains who call down with bottom pair. These are the same v's who will call 2 bets with mid-pair, who can't let even a marginal hand go. They'll call incorectly with BD draws, weak PP's, etc. And we make a fortune off them. So surely we DO want incorrect calls.

Though the word 'encourage' was probably a poor choice. technically we're 'forcing' them to choose between 1-4 above. so bad word choice, same point.

We would also very much like to see (love, perhaps? i didn't use the l-word in this post yet so there we go [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) 2). Folding a better hand is great news. SSHE says we'd like to see this when we raise to protect as well, though it's fairly clear that this isn't our primary goal as it is unlikely people will fold a better hand.

3) is of course the least preferable of the outcomes and I'm not going to harp on about it.

1) is the true 'aim' of a protection raise, no? We want people on weaker draws that might suck out on us to fold so taht we don't have to worry about them hitting their miracle draws, 2p, etc.

But I can't see how our desire for 1) jives with our desire for 4). We want incorect calls because they are where we make money from. If everyone only called correctly, we'd never make money. But we also don't like suck-outs.

Obviously in small pots, just betting out protects our hands from BD draws and whatnot but we have to work harder in big pots by check-raising or normal raising, etc. I get that.

But what i don't get is how I'm wrong to hope that my protection raise results in 1,2, and 4 above. Anything but 3 actually. The raise can do nothing *except* result in these choices for villains, so I'm not sure why I'm wrong to expect these outcomes. I'm also not clear as to why it's incorrect to want villains to make mistakes (ie 4 and 2), surely any mistake is good for me...

any help would be greatly appreciated.

[seano34]

I dont think you are that far off Marty. I only skimmed yu r post but raising to protect your hand is really only relevant when you have a vunerable made hand in large multiway pots and you want to make it incorrect for drawing hands to fold.

i.e. (and I think this is the SSHE example.

KTs in the BB.

3 limpers, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, limpers call

Flop comes something like Kh 9c 7d. If you check and it is checked round to the Button they are likely to Bet and you can raise and make it incorrect for hands like JcTc to call

[fretelöo]

Marty,

I have the feeling that you're taking this a bit too what's-the-opposite-of-flexible-? .

The thing is: You never know whether your opponent is drawing correctly or folding incorrectly. You have your hand and the board and a range of hands to put villain on. Based on that you have to come up with a line. And based on their reactions, you have to revise their range and come up with a new line. Etc.

And as long as you're in the hand, you want to WIN the hand. You don't want them to make mistakes (though winning the hand often entails them making mistakes - by drawing etc.), you simply wanna win.

If you've flopped the nut straight, you can start worrying about how to keep people IN the hand because you're such a sick favourite it's not even funny and going a bit slower on your opponents might yield a bit more return on later streets. Then, you're actively worrying about making them draw incorrectly .

If you've flopped some weak made hand, you don't have that luxury. Villains have many ways of sucking out on you, by drawing corretly OR incorrectly and you'd rather not have this happen. So you'd rather have them fold even if they would have been drawing incorrectly because your decisions are become increasingly harder as well.

Assume you raise here and everyone cold-calls. You have no way of knowing what that means. You can't just say "GREAT!!!! They all called!!!!!!!! Perfect!!!!! That's three incorrect drawing decisions right there. Now let's cap the turn to multiply their mistakes!"
As long as you're in the hand, those cold-calls should pretty much worry you as they indicate that your weak-made hand may very well not be best anymore. So you might elect to check/call the turn, which might be a mistake as you let them see a cheap river. Or you might assume you're still ahead when you're not and bet again. Now YOU'RE making mistakes because you're acting in a total vacuum. Because you don't want that to happen, because YOU don't want to make mistakes (they'll make mistakes or not - you have no way of influencing that and therefore shouldn't worry about it too much), you have to chose a line that gives the most considering your hand and villains range. And that is a raise on the flop. Plain and simple.

Tbh, I can't even explain this properly to myself. It's just something you get to know after some time that you don't want to get cute with a weak pair of aces here. Without a read, you very badly want them to fold. So you raise that flop to try to get someone to fold - correctly or incorrectly, I don't care.

Or, maybe saying this the other way around:

Of course you want them to make mistakes, but you can't force them to do so. So all you can do is play your hand as perfectly as possible and let them see to making their mistakes themselves. As long as you're playing perfect and they are not, you're making money. And just calling that flop, giving BB better odds to draw to whatever he's holding, isn't perfect considering the strenght of your hand.

[Marquis]

Do you realize that you can only beat a bluff when you call the checkraise on the river?

The rest of it I like.