A couple etiquette questions

[pfapfap]

Good points, PoF. And that reminds me, in one of the recent Card Players, Lessinger wrote about frustration at people who do moves that result in the "wrong" person winning the pot (ie, bluffing at an empty side pot). This would fall somewhat within that category, I think.

No matter how ethical you think it is, it's rude and against the spirit of the game, and is well within the fuzzy line between suspect moves and outright cheating. Lots of people here are telling you why, and you should heed what they say.

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I would consider it a reasonable advantage to have players to my right who routinely open fold hands.

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I do consider it a reasonable advantage to have these players on either side. Those who check out tend also to telegraph their intent. Works for me wherever they are, and I encourage everybody in my games to do it.

[Rottersod]

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2) In cash games, you don't have to show your cards during an all-in before the river. You can keep them down and then expose them according to the rules of who took the last aggressive action. I don't think you are ever entitled to see a hand unless the rules say it must be exposed. As for your example about having a set on the turn and putting the guy all-in, I'd have done the same as him. And on the river, I'd ask you to show your hand first, as per the rules. If I beat it, I show my winning hand and if I don't I muck. If I'm calling an all-in, I certainly am entitled to see that hand. The only way villain can get away from showing me his hand is to muck and forfeit the pot. I'd then muck right behind.

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Some Indian Casino's in SoCal require that all in hands be tabled before the rest of the cards are dealt. I think this is a dumb move but I've had no luck getting them to change it (this was more than a year ago). Other LA casino's don't care what you do (cash games) and I rarely table my cards unless I have the nuts or close to it, even if my opponent has tabled. This gives me an opportunity to muck and not give any info.

[lmcjaho]

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1) Consider this. There are six people in a limped pot. The flop comes and SB checks with not much let's say a gutshot straight draw. The next four guys fold for no good reason. Now, the sixth guy in position is against one opponent instead of five and is much more likely to bet with a very light hand and drive out SB. Those four folders essentially told the sixth guy that they will fold to any bet so feel free to push SB off his gutshot. It is very likely that SB would have seen a free turn card had there been all six players left in the pot making a position bluff less likely by the sixth player. SB most likely got robbed of a free chance at the nuts. This is obviously an exaggeration of your situation but the principle is the same. I can understand why SB would get upset. It might not be a felony or even against the rules but it certainly can cause bad feelings.

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Okay - so what about this instead?

SB flops a straight and checks it to trap.
4 folds
Button tries to "steal" the pot with a bet, playing right into SBs plans for the check-raise trap.

Does Button now call foul because the 4 folds set him up? Or do we get on with life and deal the next hand and stop being nitty?

[The DaveR]

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1) Consider this. There are six people in a limped pot. The flop comes and SB checks with not much let's say a gutshot straight draw. The next four guys fold for no good reason. Now, the sixth guy in position is against one opponent instead of five and is much more likely to bet with a very light hand and drive out SB. Those four folders essentially told the sixth guy that they will fold to any bet so feel free to push SB off his gutshot. It is very likely that SB would have seen a free turn card had there been all six players left in the pot making a position bluff less likely by the sixth player. SB most likely got robbed of a free chance at the nuts. This is obviously an exaggeration of your situation but the principle is the same. I can understand why SB would get upset. It might not be a felony or even against the rules but it certainly can cause bad feelings.

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Okay - so what about this instead?

SB flops a straight and checks it to trap.
4 folds
Button tries to "steal" the pot with a bet, playing right into SBs plans for the check-raise trap.

Does Button now call foul because the 4 folds set him up? Or do we get on with life and deal the next hand and stop being nitty?

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Right, because you're much more likely to have the nuts than nothing.