Two Pair Troubles....

[rubixxcube]

Playing in a 10/20 stud/omaha 8/b game at the borgata.

Big Blind dealt:

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG limps and MP limps.

Flop comes:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet out with Top and Bottom Pair, UTG raises and MP folds.

I call.

Turn 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

River 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

i check call both turn and river. Other Guy had AQ8, so he took the high, i was lucky and got half the pot with my low.

I always have a tough time with two pair and a bad low draw in O/8, how would you have played this hand differently?

[wackjob]

w/o a read this seems ok to me. with a really good read, you could sometimes fold the flop, but HU i'd never do it since your opponent may just be representing a nut lo draw.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet out with Top and Bottom Pair, UTG raises and MP folds.

[/ QUOTE ]Rubixxcube - Ouch! That is pure ugly! You cannot tell if UTG has the nut low draw, a better high hand than you, both, or neither.

And you're out of position.

Projecting, if you assume you will check/call the hand down, and if UTG is on a low draw, you will be risking five small bets, not just the one it costs you to call the raise.

When you split the pot, you will roughly win back the two small bets already have contributed. When you get scooped, you lose five additional small bets. In the seemingly unlikely event that you scoop your opponent, you get maybe two to one for your money.

But I think you should generally assume your opponent does not have nothing here - and therefore a scoop by you is unlikely.

Do you want to take that hammering or not?

When you're out of position, your opponent has an edge on you. There is no getting around it.

I don't like any of your alternatives.

Maybe the way you played it was best, but I personally like either re-raising or simply folding to UTG's raise better than calling and then check/calling UTG down here. It seems crazy to re-raise back into what very possibly is a set of aces, a set of queens, or AQXY. And I hate betting and then folding to a raise, but I think either of those is a better alternative than calling the raise and then taking the hammering.

Buzz

[T50_Omaha8]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the way you played it was best, but I personally like either re-raising or simply folding to UTG's raise better than calling and then check/calling UTG down here. It seems crazy to re-raise back into what very possibly is a set of aces, a set of queens, or AQXY. And I hate betting and then folding to a raise, but I think either of those is a better alternative than calling the raise and then taking the hammering.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm having trouble coming up with a non-contrived hand for villian that has hero dogged much worse than 2-1. I think this needs to get shown down as cheaply as possibly, barring disasterous turn/river combos.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm having trouble coming up with a non-contrived hand for villian that has hero dogged much worse than 2-1.

[/ QUOTE ]T50 - AQ42? AQ32? AA42? QQ32? Those are immediately off the top of my head, and I think there are many others as well.

I don't know if those are two to one or not - but they're all favorites for both high and low.

Are they contrived? Well, sure - any hand I come up with is "contrived" - but I don't think these hands are unrealistic. What I mean is there is a large group of hands that possibly fit better for both high and low with this flop than Hero's hand.

The thing with me is I am not a masochist. (I'm not implying that you are either). It isn't any fun at all for me to take a pounding, even if I end up winning the hand, even if I end up with more money at the end of the session than I started with.

The pounding itself is stressful and unhealthy, at least for me.

Buzz

[DeeJ]

I play PLO8 usually but here I would fold to the raise. Your low draw is awful and you have around a 30/70 chance of being ahead for the hi. Assuming that your opponent is half-decent, of course. If he's liable to be a-raising the flop with a lo draw only, I'd call down since you'll probably have sufficient pot equity in that case (I haven't done the math)

[rubixxcube]

I thought i should call as well but wasn't sure. The player UTG i would say was slightly better than average at this game. A little background on him for anyone that cares. I have played with him a lot, he plays better than average in my opinion but is still learning a little.

He has a lot of money, in the millions, used to play much much higher but was tired of getting losing and didn't enjoy it. He simply enjoys playing the game and learning so he plays 10/20 where the competition isn't as cut-throat. Not sure if that changes anything but it just gives some background on the player.

I am back to my orginal dilema still though, i hate reraising but i am not a huge fan of laying this down either.

[EffenDolts]

I would raise or fold AAxx UTG, so I think villain is unlikely to have AAxx, but he has to have an ace. This is supported by the fact that you have an ace and villain could play the hand like this with many limping single-ace hands.

You have slightly more than 50% equity against one good O8 hand after the flop. See:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=
This means that you have very little equity against hands that like this flop a lot. I see your 8 as a blocker that makes it less likely that villain has A8 or 88. This makes your semi-bluff more likely to succeed. However, the Queens are all available to be in villains hand. Once villain says he has a raising hand, your top and bottom pair are pretty worthless. Even if villain had A23x and only one pair on the flop, none of the cards in the deck are good for you except the case Ace.

You used your position to make a claim on the pot. Fine. I think you have to let it go when villain raises.

Effen

[fishyak]

I like the bet out after the flop IF you had some evidence that UTG will do exactly what he did, raise. I see this isolation play a lot at Commerce, and it usually does NOT mean strength. And it you got what you wanted, MP to fold.

This is now the kind of hand I see checked down a lot with just two players. The odds of it being a split pot are very high and if your opponent will not check it all the way you do have to consider that your hand is not strong EITHER way. But I do believe that if you do get it down to two players, you are likely to get a 1/2 that MAY be worth protecting.

So if you check the flop, it should be check/fold if you face two players. Or if you want to make a play for the pot, the early bet out created the opportunity for you and UTG to gang up on MP and it worked regardless of how bad your cards are.