Does this hand prove I really haven't grasped PL O/8 yet?

[Drizztdj]

Freeriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide.

[dren]

Thanks everyone, I think I agree with the last few posts.
It was an isolation play with not decent enough of a hand to do so, which got me in trouble when I flopped top set.
Definately have to think a little more about this game.
Can anyone recommend some good literature on this subject?
Also finding recently (since a post a couple of weeks back), I never EVER raise pre-flop (during normal play - ie - not the previous example), something else which I am struggling with.

[Drizztdj]

I got stacked just last week on a similar hand. Trip aces look too pretty to fold sometimes.

[SplawnDarts]

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Everything in this post except 1b and the final paragraph is wrong. A few points become less wrong (and even reasonable) when hero has a full stack.

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Wow, what brilliant analysis.

Sorry, but it's clear you have no grasp of the topics at hand as every single thing I posted was factually indisputable, except for the hand reading information which is merely almost always true.

If you care to dispute individual points, go to town so we can see how wrong you are. But a blanket dismissal simply makes it apparent that you're both unknowledgeable and intellectually lazy.

Have a nice day [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[niss]

Don't argue with Phil. He has a large investment account. Which necessarily means that he is never wrong.

[SplawnDarts]

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Don't argue with Phil. He has a large investment account. Which necessarily means that he is never wrong.

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Wow. I bet he has a massive e-dick, genius IQ, abs of steel, and a car that runs 9s on street tires too [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Mercyful]

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I would say that hand is a litany of classic PLO8 mistakes.

1a) entering a pot for a re-raise with money back and a very marginal AA hand (A7 for low, a 9). You're essentially in a horrid reverse implied odds situation and from a mathematical POV much of your equity comes from hoping your AA holds up!!! It might be alright if you could get all in preflop, but you can't without help. Instead you end up "almost committed" to the pot preflop with a weak hand. That's just shooting yourself in the foot.

1b) In addition to the very marginal hand, you're OOP.

1c) Being out of position is especially bad when you're almost committed to the hand ie. 1a) and 1b) are worse together than either would be seperatly. Your expectation on these hands is going to depend almost entirely on correct flop play, and that's not going to happen OOP.

2a) You allowed yourself to be freerollled by a made low hand. There was no way you could win low, but he had 13 outs twice for high.

2b) You failed to recognize the implication of 2 wheel cards on a 3-low board. That almost always means someone has a good low plus a draw for high. If he has a made low, it's almost certain he's rolling you.

2c) You failed to practice hand reading - if you've seen 3 aces, and someone raise from EP in front of you, it's highly likely all four aces are accounted for. That means villain, if he has any kind of hand standards at all, has to have exactly 23LL. Which is exactly the case that rolls you the worst.

3a) Your pot-sized bet on the flop was mis-sized. The only hands likely to fold are A2HH type hands that are dead both ways. You don't need to pot it to make that happen - they'll go away easy, and if they don't you've actually successfully value bet. So if you're going to bet, keep it small.

3b) Your flop bet was misguided as well as being mis-sized - you get called by essentially anyone with a backup low or 23 low. So your fold equity is lower than normal (since 2c tells you that's exactly what villain likely has), and there's almost no chance you can value bet because you basically can't have an equity edge. So, with no good that can come from betting, don't bet. Just check & hope for a check behind and that the board pairs so you can take your half and go home.

3c) Another way to think about why the flop bet is wrong is that it split's villain's range. The hands he folds (A2HH & possibly HHHH) have essentially no equity against you, so you want him in with those and trying to steal. The ones he calls with are rolling you. There's very little middle ground in this case, and splitting villain's range with a bet is always a bad idea.

4) 62BB is an insufficient stack for any serious PLO play. If the hands were reversed, you'd dearly like to be as deep as the opposition so you could roll him for 120BB instead of just 60.

Basically, the only thing you did right was calling off the final $7.50 once you were completely committed. I don't mean to be harsh, but this hand definitely means you don't "get" PLO8.

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Great post.

[Omaha8sPoker]

I tend to agree with Dave here, that it is an isolation play run afowl...I am not of the camp who views this type of hand as the type to pull an isolation play on because I think it will get you into trouble more times than it doesn't, which in this case it did...

I'm trying to think of a way you can save yourself in this hand, but I can't do it...The problem here is that you are too short stacked to save yourself...With the pot roughly $40 on the flop and you having $48 behind I think it is impossible to get away from this unless you bet like $10 on the flop and if I were your opponent I may try to bluff you out with a bet that small into a pot that big...I was going to say bet half the pot and if you get raised you probably know that you are in a little trouble...But if you bet $20 into a $40 pot and your opponent comes over the top of you then the pot will have $108 (if my math is correct) and you would have to call $28 into it which is a no brainer call at that point...

As I have seen dave post before (and I agree with him) he loves to try to crack AAxx with a hand like your opponent had...You basically played your hand face up in this spot and your opponent had a great hand to crack you with...I think you need to worry a little more about position when you try this isolation play with an extremely marginal AA hand...

[Phil153]

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Everything in this post except 1b and the final paragraph is wrong. A few points become less wrong (and even reasonable) when hero has a full stack.

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Wow, what brilliant analysis.

Sorry, but it's clear you have no grasp of the topics at hand as every single thing I posted was factually indisputable

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I'm going to borrow one from El Diablo:
"LOL"

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, except for the hand reading information which is merely almost always true.

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If you care to dispute individual points, go to town so we can see how wrong you are. But a blanket dismissal simply makes it apparent that you're both unknowledgeable and intellectually lazy.

Have a nice day [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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Attitudes like yours are why all knowledgeable PLO8 posters no longer post here. Here we go:

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1a) entering a pot for a re-raise with money back and a very marginal AA hand (A7 for low, a 9). You're essentially in a horrid reverse implied odds situation and from a mathematical POV much of your equity comes from hoping your AA holds up!!! It might be alright if you could get all in preflop, but you can't without help. Instead you end up "almost committed" to the pot preflop with a weak hand. That's just shooting yourself in the foot.

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AA7 is a powerhouse of a hand. The slightest skill will turn a large profit with AA6-8 hands. I've previously posted my stats with this hand and so have others. The strength of AA7 is not even up for debate. The reraise was the correct play given his stack size and an acceptable play with full stacks.

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1c) Being out of position is especially bad when you're almost committed to the hand ie. 1a) and 1b) are worse together than either would be seperatly. Your expectation on these hands is going to depend almost entirely on correct flop play, and that's not going to happen OOP.

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Where do you get that idea? Certain flops will suck (i.e. 3 low cards without an A), but they are in the minority and generally easily spotted. Run some flopalyzer charts against his range. Most of the time we're getting the rest of our money in good - the pot is giving us nearly 2:1 on the flop. That means that by reraising preflop, it's impossible to put our money in bad against his range

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2a) You allowed yourself to be freerollled by a made low hand. There was no way you could win low, but he had 13 outs twice for high.

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Results oriented rubbish. Not to mention the fact that pot is laying nearly 2:1 + fold equity. He'll only have 23 some of the time here, and even then we're not making a mistake. Even running into a 4 card wrap + nut low, we had 33.7% equity. Think about that for a second and tell me betting is not correct when the pot is giving 2:1.

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2b) You failed to recognize the implication of 2 wheel cards on a 3-low board. That almost always means someone has a good low plus a draw for high.

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And you fail to realize that people will only have callable hands a percentage of the time - and even against a near worse case scenario we don't lose equity given the pot odds
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If he has a made low, it's almost certain he's rolling you.

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o rly? The issue is how often he has said low, and how much equity we have against it. Nothing else. "Don't get freerolled" is just a rule of thumb. You still have to take into account pot size and hand ranges. Stop being scared and use your head in this game.

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2c) You failed to practice hand reading - if you've seen 3 aces, and someone raise from EP in front of you, it's highly likely all four aces are accounted for. That means villain, if he has any kind of hand standards at all, has to have exactly 23LL. Which is exactly the case that rolls you the worst.

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You've got to be kidding.

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3a) Your pot-sized bet on the flop was mis-sized. The only hands likely to fold are A2HH type hands that are dead both ways. You don't need to pot it to make that happen - they'll go away easy, and if they don't you've actually successfully value bet. So if you're going to bet, keep it small.

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Again, you've to be kidding. A flush draw wouldn't lay this down getting 2:1. Neither would top 2. Are you aware that there are 2 draws out there?? (a one card low draw and a flush draw). Given the pot size relative to your probable equity, it's entirely in your interest to increase your fold equity.

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3b) Your flop bet was misguided as well as being mis-sized - you get called by essentially anyone with a backup low or 23 low. So your fold equity is lower than normal (since 2c tells you that's exactly what villain likely has), and there's almost no chance you can value bet because you basically can't have an equity edge. So, with no good that can come from betting, don't bet. Just check & hope for a check behind and that the board pairs so you can take your half and go home.

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Ugh. See above.

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3c) Another way to think about why the flop bet is wrong is that it split's villain's range. The hands he folds (A2HH & possibly HHHH) have essentially no equity against you, so you want him in with those and trying to steal. The ones he calls with are rolling you. There's very little middle ground in this case, and splitting villain's range with a bet is always a bad idea.

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A2HH has no equity against you? Wow. What about flush draws? I suggest examining our equity vs villain's range and the size of the pot. The only correct action is pushing, since we cannot fold.

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4) 62BB is an insufficient stack for any serious PLO play. If the hands were reversed, you'd dearly like to be as deep as the opposition so you could roll him for 120BB instead of just 60.

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62BB is fine for PLO8 play, when used with a different strategy. One which Hero executed perfectly in this hand.

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Basically, the only thing you did right was calling off the final $7.50 once you were completely committed. I don't mean to be harsh, but this hand definitely means you don't "get" PLO8.

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Yeah, ok. Nicely done champ.

[Phil153]

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Don't argue with Phil. He has a large investment account. Which necessarily means that he is never wrong.

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You're still trolling me after all these months? Wow.

That post wasn't bragging - I was responding to your troll that I'd have to rob a bank to play high stakes. Do try and keep up, niss.

BTW, in case you missed it (and it seems that you have), this is the Omaha/8 forum, not a social club. Do you have a comment on the hand in question?