$16: FPSing w/ AJ otb

[Finnisher]

BB is a good player, SB not exactly. My idea was to simultaneously make BB think I had a huge hand and SB think I had [censored]. And also maybe induce a SnG out of BB. Do I want him to SnG me? Is it better for me if BB thinks I have a big hand and folds hands he'd call with had I pushed? The difference between shoving and doing this [censored] is probably pretty small but is it possible this line is (was) better? I'm not suggesting this to be something usable, I just can't figure out the theoretical stuff behind this and want help. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2825)
CO (t3320)
Hero (t4890)
SB (t1040)
BB (t1425)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t500</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, BB calls t300

Flop: (t1100) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">BB bets t925 (All-in)</font>, Hero calls t925

BB had T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I didn't expect him to do this with ATC.

[TruFloridaGator]

I just don't understand why we want a possible call from the BB. SB is calling a shove with nearly the same hands he is shoving over a raise to 500 based on your read. Maximize your FE. As for the BB, you expect him to fold out some hands that are beating you if you make a standard raise?

[NU Star]

Yeah, no reason to do anything cute here. Shove is good.

[Finnisher]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the BB, you expect him to fold out some hands that are beating you if you make a standard raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he might fold some small pairs. If he SnG's ATC and I'll call that's good for me too, no? This is just a mess and I want to find out if there's anything good in it.

[TruFloridaGator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the BB, you expect him to fold out some hands that are beating you if you make a standard raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he might fold some small pairs. If he SnG's ATC and I'll call that's good for me too, no? This is just a mess and I want to find out if there's anything good in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It could have a lot of value if BB is like 2p2 or something, but I don't gather that from your read. I don't think you can have a good enough read to know what hands he is folding to a standard raise and calling against a shove. You haven't made that clear enough, but it sure is interesting. FWIW, it's not bad, but your read needs to be super specific. Play around with SNGWiz &amp; see what you find.

[DeathbySuckout]

Finnisher,

What is your plan if he stop n go's and you didn't hit the flop?

[Sparta45]

To do anything other than just shove preflop is a mistake.

[Shaver67]

This is interesting-

I do things like this too and my thinking is as follows-

1. I'm obv happy to get aipf against either player
2. that + villians stack sizes = any raise I make pf* commits me to the pot
3. so i will make an inbetween raise if I think either has a wider shoving than shove calling range or bb was likely to SnG wide (note- I don't think I've ever thought that in game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) but the first comes up sometimes.

So long as we never fold the flop the only negative vs shoving would be when villian calls pf and then folds correctly later with something he'd have called ai w/ pf. Which 1. doesn't happen often and 2. if villian correctly folds 44 when the A flops he will also generally incorrectly fold 44 when KQ flops. so even when it does happen partially washes out.

So if we can induce larger mistakes from these villians by getting our stack in in two chunks vs. one I say do it.

*(and I'm about 95% to raise- every once in a while against a hyperaggro iddiot or hyperaggro solid w/ history I'll limp to induce a shove)

[Finnisher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the BB, you expect him to fold out some hands that are beating you if you make a standard raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he might fold some small pairs. If he SnG's ATC and I'll call that's good for me too, no? This is just a mess and I want to find out if there's anything good in it.

[/ QUOTE ]
It could have a lot of value if BB is like 2p2 or something, but I don't gather that from your read. I don't think you can have a good enough read to know what hands he is folding to a standard raise and calling against a shove. You haven't made that clear enough, but it sure is interesting. FWIW, it's not bad, but your read needs to be super specific. Play around with SNGWiz &amp; see what you find.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if he's 2p2 but he's certainly one of the better players I've played with. I haven't played with him enough to know he will SnG but if he calls PF I can't see him doing anything else than SnG.

[ QUOTE ]
Finnisher,

What is your plan if he stop n go's and you didn't hit the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Obv call cos I expect him to do it.