Open Ended Straight Flush draw and Second Nut Low draw.

[rubixxcube]

Another Hand from this weekend at the borgata 10/20 2 way game. This game has a half kill as well, so when 1 player wins pot 150 or greater next hand is half killed and played at 15/30 stakes. I am somewhat new at omaha and just looking for some thoughts as i'm not always sure what the correct play is.

Hand here is a 1/2 kill pot.
I'm in the CO with:
A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Everyone in front of me limps in so i limp as well.
Button folds and SB who only has $45 left raises to 30. Everybody calls and so do i.

So we have 8 players in for $30 each preflop.

Flop comes 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

So i flop second nut low draw and open ended straight flush draw.

SB bets out 15, 2 player call and guy on my right raises to $30.

i call and so does SB(who's call puts her all in) and so do a few others.

We are 5 ( 1 is all in) handed to the turn with $390 in the pot.

Turn is: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

EP bets out 30 and guy to my right raises again and makes it $60. I have the Nut Straight but assume he has to have a boat and at least one other player has A2 for the low. I think for a while, figure i am drawing to 2 outs with my straight flush as the only outs but the pot is very large. After thinking for a while i fold.

River is a blank, Raiser is checked to, bets out and called by 3 people, 2 have A2, Raiser has 55 and flopped the boat, other player had 67 and turned the straight and crying called.

Thoughts? Should i have folded the flop? Should i have called the turn due to size of the pot?

The guy who raised both cards was not what i would call a good player, he "Thought" he was and even told me he was but after watching him make some questionable calls etc i did not believe him so i would have classified him as a slightly below average player at omaha/8

[wackjob]

fold the flop, EASY. rule of thumb at O8, especially in a full game: if you don't have the nuts or are not drawing to the nuts(and I don't mean a 2 outer to a str8 flush for only 1/2 the pot) you should fold. in this case if it were 1 bet to me on the flop I'd peel. but with a bet & raise in front and the only nut draw you have being for 1/2 the pot, it should be an easy muck.

[rubixxcube]

Thanks wackjob, after i called the flop i realized that i probably should have folded for 2 bets cold.

Ruby

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
So i flop second nut low draw and open ended straight flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]Rubixxcube - Welcome to Omaha-8 Hell. Your starting hand is not great, but is very playable, in my humble opinion. But then the combination of your hand with this flop is tough to play.

You also have a draw to the nut flush, but the board is already paired.

• for low: Someone is going to have an ace-deuce roughly half the time. Is this that half of the time?
• for high: It’s a no-no to draw to a flush when the flop is paired. Drawing to a straight flush, in general, is a loser. (You simply don’t generally have favorable odds to do so in a limit game).

[ QUOTE ]
SB bets out 15, 2 player call and guy on my right raises to $30.

[/ QUOTE ]Most opponents don’t show anything in particular with a leading bet from the small blind. Could be any of a wide range of hands. Depends on the opponent, of course.

The raise from the guy to your right is probably 4XYZ. Could be a full house. Could be something else. But it is most likely simply 4XYZ. Again, this depends on the opponent.

[ QUOTE ]
i call

[/ QUOTE ]I would hate folding your hand here, but I think that’s your play.

[ QUOTE ]
EP bets out 30 and guy to my right raises again and makes it $60. I have the Nut Straight but assume he has to have a boat and at least one other player has A2 for the low. I think for a while, figure i am drawing to 2 outs with my straight flush as the only outs but the pot is very large. After thinking for a while i fold.

[/ QUOTE ]Tough spot. But if you only have two outs, the odds against making your hand must be something like twenty to one, and it’s for half the pot.
$60*20 = $1200. Is there over a thousand bucks in the half or the pot you’ll win if you make your straight flush? Not even close? Then a fold is in order.

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts? Should i have folded the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. Fold to the double bet on the flop. [ QUOTE ]
Should i have called the turn due to size of the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]No. Keep in mind you’re only getting roughly half the pot, and the chances of that are poor.

[ QUOTE ]
The guy who raised both cards was not what i would call a good player,

[/ QUOTE ]All the same, his raises made it tougher for you to play your hand.[ QUOTE ]
he "Thought" he was and even told me he was

[/ QUOTE ]How odd. In all the years I’ve played poker, I cannot recall anyone ever telling me he/she was a good player.

Buzz

[rubixxcube]

Buzz,
agreed on most of what you say, i agree its not the best starting hand, 3 of a suit with the nut and A3, part of why i played this was late position and every player had limped so far.

i figured him for at least trips probably the boat and a slight chance A2 only. So i peeled one assuming i had 6 outs or so the the nuts, 2 for high and 4 for low, or only 2 or 3 for low if others had A2.

On more than 1 occasion i have had players tell me that they are good players. Even if i believe that i'm not sure why i would tell someone that i was a good player. Ironically though the few times people have said that to me it has never turned out, in my opinion, except for once, that the player was actually a good player.

Ruby

[Fiasco]

[ QUOTE ]
agreed on most of what you say, i agree its not the best starting hand, 3 of a suit with the nut and A3, part of why i played this was late position and every player had limped so far.

[/ QUOTE ] This is a fine starting hand to play in this position. THe fact that everyone limps just makes it better. DOnt need to justify it at all.
[ QUOTE ]
i figured him for at least trips probably the boat and a slight chance A2 only. So i peeled one assuming i had 6 outs or so the the nuts, 2 for high and 4 for low, or only 2 or 3 for low if others had A2.

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe Im just tired but it looks like you are calling two bets into a 14 bet pot with 6 outs to win half the pot (ignoring the question of how many deuces are left and whether hitting one will actually get you half).

[ QUOTE ]
On more than 1 occasion i have had players tell me that they are good players. Even if i believe that i'm not sure why i would tell someone that i was a good player. Ironically though the few times people have said that to me it has never turned out, in my opinion, except for once, that the player was actually a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]
Had this lady sit down in my LO8 game a couple months ago who was a "good player". After raising preflop in one hand, she cont bets a flop of K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Ive got a flush draw and nut low draw and while Im thinking about raising she says, "dont bother calling, Ive got it". I call down to the river, and river my flush. She shows flopped top set, and acts indignant, making comments about how shes a good player and I should have "believed" her.

5 minutes later she figures out that were playing hilo rather than straight high.

[rubixxcube]

I believe its 2 bets into 21 to win half the pot with 6 outs. Not sure it neccesarily justifies it but:

8 players for 2 bets preflop (16 bets).
Sb bets flop, 2 callers and a raise(5 Bets)
21 bets.

45 unseen cards on turn, 45/6 = 7.5

Playing for half the pot, 21/2/2 =5.25.

Its possibly close..... i am assuming the others are calling as well so thats 3 more bets if i'm pretty sure they are calling.

so its 24/2/2 which would be = 6.

Add in the fact that if the straight flush card comes i get mutltiple bets out of the boat, especially the hand he showed included 554 so he knows i can't have four fours....

Turn i think 60 is a bad call if i had called but now thinking over this unless my math is way wrong then the flop call might not be the worst.... Yes?No?

[Murakawa]

with all those limpers I think someone probably has 45 or trips and has 9 outs to pick up a full house, and the raiser, if he knows what he is doing, probably has something like A23 or A24, (or even a234) and you're really screwed. How many cards are out there? I would fold here but then again I'm no expert.

[bbartlog]

I believe its 2 bets into 21 to win half the pot with 6 outs.

Except you have to discount your low equity somewhat because of the chance that someone else has A3xx; likewise, with eight people to see the flop, the proportion of deuces remaining is probably less than 4/45. Anyway, even with your optimistic assumptions, the call doesn't look correct. If you want to argue for a call you would have to introduce some chance that your A-high flush would be good, but then you're looking at ugly reverse implied odds against a full house.
Anyway, with the implied odds for a straight flush you're right that it's not the worst call in the world (we assume you could cap the river if you made it), but there's no way it's +EV.