pathological narcissism in poker: help or hindrance?

[ratel]

In case anyone wants to take a crack at it, here's a little "Matrix"-inspired hypothetical which occurred to me this afternoon:

Say the Poker Gods were to offer you a Faustian bargain in the form of "the Purple Pill" (i.e. halfway between red and blue). If you choose the Purple Pill, for the rest of your life you will have a delusionally-exaggerated sense of your skill and accomplishments--but will simultaneously be freed of all crippling self-doubt and thereby able to achieve real-world fame, fortune, and legitimate greatness. Would you take it?

Put another way, to what extent is pathological narcissism in this game a help or a hindrance? At first glance, a realistic self-image seems like the obvious choice. But frankly, once you make peace with the fact that most rational people are going to hold it against you, I'm having a hard time seeing the downside. How great a player would you be if you got out of your own way and completely believed in yourself, right or wrong? It's the easiest thing in the world to rip certain top players for being flaming egomaniacs...but does the nature of the game itself require it?

I think Erasmus said it best in his masterpiece "In Praise of Folly":

"What is so foolish as self-satisfaction and self-admiration? But then what agreeable, pleasant, or graceful act can you perform if you aren't self-satisfied? Take away this salt of life and immediately the orator and his gestures will be a bore, the musician will please no one with his tunes, the actor and his posturing will be hissed off the stage, [...] which shows how necessary it is for a man to have a good opinion of himself, and give himself a boost to win his own self-esteem before he can win that of others.

Since for the most part, happiness consists in being willing to be what you are, Self-Love has provided a shortcut to it by ensuring that no one is dissatisfied with his own looks, character, race, position and way of life. [...] Where [Nature] has withheld some of her gifts, she generally adds a tiny bit more Self-Love-- but it's silly of me to say this since Self-Love is her greatest gift. Just let me add that you'll find no great deed was ever performed without its prompting and no new art discovered unless it was responsible."

Something to think about!

[miw210]

Being good at poker at all requires you to desire and ability to constantly critique what you are doing. For this reason, I don't narcissism will help in poker at all.

[ratel]

True, but all the qualities that make a great player (fearlessness, cunning, aggression, reading ablilities, bluffing skills, etc.) evaporate when you're doomed to always second-guess yourself. Actually, many narcissists are driven to be the best of the best:

"In specious contrast, the over-achieving narcissist seeks challenges and risks, provokes competition, embellishes expectations, aggressively bids for responsibilities and authority and seems to be possessed with an eerie self-confidence. People tend to regard such specimen as "entrepreneurial", "daring", "visionary", or "tyrannical". Yet, these narcissists too are mortified by potential failure, driven by a strong conviction of entitlement, and strive to be unique and be perceived as such."

Based on everything I've seen, I'm leaning toward "help" over "hindrance"...LOL!

[CHAx]

I just disagree that being narcistic will help you be a better player. Second guessing yourself is a great thing to do when playing poker. In the end, you must follow your instincts, but second guessing helps you understand your decision making process. Success in poker is only gained through introspection, not mindless egocentricism.

[ratel]

Sure, but someone who's truly convinced he's destined for poker greatness will be a lot more likely have a near-monomaniacal dedication to dissecting every aspect of his game than the average person. If you aren't confident you'll amount to much, you're at a real disadvantage.

Tirelessly reflecting on how you can improve is one thing, but second-guessing yourself in the middle of a game is a recipe for disaster. Weakness shows, and sharks can smell it a mile away...

[El_Hombre_Grande]

Narcissism will NOT help your poker game. In fact, I think its the worst trait you can have. The game is about conquering self-delusion, not succumbing to it.

[ratel]

Point taken, but I wasn't thinking so much of "succumbing to it" as using it as a means to an end. People who are shrewd and dedicated enough to channel their grandiose flakiness into productive, real-world achievements are really onto something, IMO.

Besides, if narcissistic personality disorder is really the worst trait you can have as a poker player, why is it so MASSIVELY overrepresented in WSOP bracelet-winners compared to the average population? Dude, I mean really--check it out:

***

Narcissistic Personality Disorder
DSM IV Criteria

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Something to think about! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[swingdoc]

Ratel

You're missing the very important criteria defining ANY personality disorder:

[ QUOTE ]
A. Experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectations of the individual's culture. This pattern is manifested in two (or more) of the following areas:

cognition
affect
interpersonal functioning
impulse control

B. The enduring pattern is inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations.

C. The enduring pattern leads to clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. The pattern is stable and of long duration and its onset can be traced back at least to adolescence or early adulthood.

E. The enduring pattern is not better accounted for as a manifestation or consequence of another mental disorder.

F. The enduring pattern is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance or a general medical condition such as head injury.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously some degree of narcissism is necessary for us to play poker at all. Pathologic narcissism, by definition, is harmful to one or more areas of our life. Obviously, we're talking about degrees of narcissism here, but since you specifically asked about the PD, I thought I hsould point this out. One side point, I suspect that too great a degree of narcissism (among other things) leads directly to problem gambling.