Building large multiway pots with speculative hands

[corndog]

This might be a relatively silly question, but I'd like to get some additional thoughts on it.

This is the first orbit in a private 12-person tourney (slow night last night.. average is around 18-20). SB is 29/13 VPIP/PFR over 170 hands I have with him. He isn't a great player, but solid enough that I consider him one of the better opponents in these weekly tournaments. UTG is very loose/passive, MP is new to the tourney so no reads.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t1400)
UTG (t1480)
MP (t1660)
CO (t1580)
Hero (t1440)
SB (t1440)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, MP calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t160</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls t140, MP calls t140, Hero calls t100.

Flop: (t660) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t400</font>, UTG calls t400, MP calls t400, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1280</font>, SB calls t880 (All-In), UTG calls t880, MP folds.

Final Pot: t4900

I discussed this hand with some friends who have similar skill levels to myself, and while all three of us agree on the flop play I was surprised that they didn't like the preflop raise on my part.

I started out as a primary limit player, and started raising these speculative hands (as well as small pairs and some 1-gappers) to "sweeten the pot" after reading some Sklansky (Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players I think?). I always thought that it migrated well to NL and MTT tourneys assuming stacks are deep enough.

However, my buddies think that the best move preflop is to limp, so that I maximize my implied odds and also can get away from a blind raise with no problems. I like the raise here because I play this hand pretty much for the flop only. I don't consider it a 5-street hand, but an excellent hand to see 4-way to the flop. If I catch a big piece or monster draw I want as much leverage as I can get on the flop betting round, and I think a larger pot gives me that. I also keep my raises small enough in these situations so that the limpers feel they are obligated to call.

If I whiff or don't catch a good piece I can easily give up on the flop if bet into, or c-bet if checked to.

So, my question is:

1) limp or raise
2) If raise, how much? I didn't want to scare anyone out, because the more callers I have the better my potential for maximizing the value of a monster. I really consider this a value raise, but should I? Should I try a larger raise in an attempt to end the hand here?

Personally I feel that the play was pretty standard and my buddies are losing a lot of value by checking. I'm pretty certain the call to the preflop reraise (5:1) and the turn push are standard as well, but if I'm wrong please let me know.

[Potowame]

"Building large multiway pots with speculative hands"

This can't be good....


If you are in a game that players open limp and cold call a Raise and Reraise after them, why not just wait to hit something with 78s.

[corndog]

[ QUOTE ]
"Building large multiway pots with speculative hands"

This can't be good....


If you are in a game that players open limp and cold call a Raise and Reraise after them, why not just wait to hit something with 78s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but can you treat this as a more general situation? i.e., ~70BB stacks in the first level in a MTT and there are two limpers to you (edit: said on BB, I meant button). You have 78s. What is your move, and does it vary significantly based on the skill level of your opposition?

[watevs]

check every time, not close, especially against low buyin players who have better cards and an unwillingness to fold more often than not.

[corndog]

[ QUOTE ]
check every time, not close, especially against low buyin players who have better cards and an unwillingness to fold more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got confused on why you said check, and then realized my last post said BB when it was supposed to be button. Oops.

I wouldn't dream of anything but a check if I was the BB.

[DiscipleAA]

The thing I dont like about your pot sweetener bet is that it becomes a tell as to what your hand is, It must look like a standard value raise or an opponent who has seen you make the play before can come back over the top of you for a resteal, and in most situations you cant call (obviously you can here considering it was a smallish bet and practically the rest of the table called in front of you) someone may say something like "well then all you have to do is sometimes make this play with a big hand (say 20% of the time) and your opponents will be unable to get a read on your holding so they will be forced to play straightforward against you"... the obvious problem with that mindset is that if you hold a hand like say AA, and you raise to 60 with two callers in front of you, you've just put yourself in a terrible situation against a big field, with AA you dont want to take the flop 5+ handed... that means that you have to either raise preflop to 100, or limp with the rest of the field... I don't mind either play... but I don't like a raise to 60...

[corndog]

Thanks, I hadn't looked at it from that angle. There are only two or three guys in this tourney that have much experience at all and would pick up on something like that (none of which were in the hand), but I can see how that can be an issue in more competitive fields.

[holdemft]

I don't mind your PFR, you shouldn't just raise with your strong hands, else everytime you raise, people will have an easier time putting you on a hand. That doesn't mean you should always raise these kind of hands, just keep it random. I think after you get R/R you have to call with your odds (though if every in front of you had folded, I would have mucked the hand). Post flop I probably would have jammed the pot too, OESFD is good enough for me to gamble with.

[Eagles]

Anything but limping pf sucks.

[Dazza1984]

preflop raise is ok. I like to mix raising and calling with these connectors. No one has showed any strength so far pf + you have position.

Now you hit the flop, are fav against top set so push