self censorship

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limon: what uses of force do you view as legitimate? Were the operations against the Taliban, for example, legitimate in your opinion?

[/ QUOTE ]

self defense is legitimate. if someone has a gun pointed at you you can shoot but you cant say well we think he has a gun somwhere in his house but we have no proof, and the bullets cant reach us and the inspectors say otherwise but were gonna drive over and shoot him anyway. you also cant say hey you're kid is a criminal so were gonna kill the whole family. with great power comes great responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what is your answer to the question that was asked?

[/ QUOTE ]

here ill continue the analogy. if you neighbor blew up your mailbox, killed your dog then told you he was going to kill your family. then you peaked over his fence and saw his family in black outfits climbing on monkey bars chanting "death to neighbor" youd be justified in jumping the fence and kicking some ass. you would not be justified in then going 2 doors down to someone elses house and kicking their ass just so they wouldnt think about trying something later.

[crookedhat99]

[ QUOTE ]

What bothers me most about people like you is not that you disagree with my opinion of the war and its origins. It's that you don't even seem to be aware that there might be more to the story than "Well gee, them there A-Rabs is not treatin' their wimmin too nice, why we oughta ride on in there and save the day. Oh, and lookey heere, while we're at it, look at all this oil we found. Oh, and it's a nice side benefit that we now have a strong military presence in the middle east. But really, it was about putting out that evil dictator. Really it was. USA! USA! USA!"

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf 'people like me'. I don't have an opinion on the war you flaming douchebag, I don't follow it nearly enough to confidently talk about it one way or the other. With my previous arguments all I was trying to do was justify a feeling I have. That feeling is that I care when an American soldier dies, I don't care at all when an Iraqi insurgent dies.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

[censored] 'support our troops, oppose the war.' Any man with a conscience who doesn't like what he's doing can quit at any time, even if at times his only choice is one slightly less terrible option over another.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if quitting violates an oath he took, and through the taking of which he knowingly surrendered the option of quitting due to policy preferences?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it seems to me that the consequences of this line of reasoning are that the only moral possibility is to not have a standing army, which seems impractical.

[/ QUOTE ]

not true. the oath/military code of conduct has outs. outs which should be exorcized when asked to kill in a preemptive, unilateral, war of choice. some brave sevicemen have already gone this route. those are troops i can support!

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it seems to me that the consequences of this line of reasoning are that the only moral possibility is to not have a standing army, which seems impractical.

[/ QUOTE ]

not true. the oath/military code of conduct has outs. outs which should be exercized when asked to kill in a preemptive, unilateral, war of choice. some brave sevicemen have already gone this route. those are troops i can support!

[/ QUOTE ]

Those people are getting military benefits under false pretenses, I would argue. I agree that it is probably a more moral decision, but still less moral than not agreeing to sign up in the first place. EDIT: Saying "I'll serve if I happen to agree with the war" seems to me functionally equivalent to not having a standing army.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]

not true. the oath/military code of conduct has outs. outs which should be exercized when asked to kill in a preemptive, unilateral, war of choice. some brave sevicemen have already gone this route. those are troops i can support!

[/ QUOTE ]

The Code of Conduct is a prescription for behaviour if you are POW. As for your comments about the Military Oath they again reflect your passion more than your reason.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

not true. the oath/military code of conduct has outs. outs which should be exercized when asked to kill in a preemptive, unilateral, war of choice. some brave sevicemen have already gone this route. those are troops i can support!

[/ QUOTE ]

The Code of Conduct is a prescription for behaviour if you are POW. As for your comments about the Military Oath they again reflect your passion more than your reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

my reason comes from here. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...-officer5feb05,0,1444479.story

a real hero, worthy of support. i got my reasons from things i read about his defense not from passion.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

not true. the oath/military code of conduct has outs. outs which should be exercized when asked to kill in a preemptive, unilateral, war of choice. some brave sevicemen have already gone this route. those are troops i can support!

[/ QUOTE ]

The Code of Conduct is a prescription for behaviour if you are POW. As for your comments about the Military Oath they again reflect your passion more than your reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

my reason comes from here. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...-officer5feb05,0,1444479.story

a real hero, worthy of support.

[/ QUOTE ]

His "out" is court-martial and time in prison for violating his oath-- so it is not an "out" from the oath.

But congrats to him if he considers his disobedience a moral obligation and has the courage to take the consequences.

As a thought exercise you might try to imagine the existence of someone every bit as morally serious who didn't see such a moral obligation. Or not...

[Boris]

The Iraqi insurgents are the home team? Uh no. And when it comes to choices, the insurgents could easily stop the violence by putting down their weapons. Do you really think the situation for the peaceful Iraqi civilian will improve if the US pulled out tomorrow?

BTW - I was against the war before we invaded. I never believed the WMD BS and anyone who did is a sucker. That being said, I can see an argument that replacing the Hussein regime would be strategically beneficial to the US. I also believe that when making any kind of choice, be it moral or political, you deal with the facts as they exist. So despite what you may think about the original decision to go to war, the fact is that we are deeply entrenched right now. And to pull out immediately would cause widespread death and destruction. The death count would be far higher than what we can expect from further US occupation in Iraq.

[El Diablo]

All,

Please keep focused on arguments/debate rather than flames. If you don't have anything to say besides "that is stupid" then don't write it. There's still some good discussion going on here, so let's keep that going.

Posts with personal insults from here forward will be deleted.

[limon]

"His "out" is court-martial and time in prison for violating his oath-- so it is not an "out" from the oath."

this has not been decided yet. in fact the govt. is scared shytless of this guy. his illegal war/illegal orders defense is compelling.