Virginia apologizes for slavery... why?

[John Kilduff]

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And certainly, we've done very, very little to make amends.

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Again I must quibble. They did very little to make amends. We had, and have, nothing to do with it.

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We disagree on whether it makes sense to seek redress today. Today's American Indians are living in poverty, mostly as a result of a past wrong, from which we are "benefiting."

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It seems to me that there are two problems with your chain of logic here.

The first is the conclusion that today's American Indians are living in poverty because of a long-past wrong. I don't know the extent of American Indians' poverty today, but let's assume it is terrible. How do we know the cause for this? The fact is, we don't. If it occurred directly or soon after the Trail of Tears, I'd be very much inclined to agree with you. But it is generations later than that, and much has happened since then. No American Indian today is any more trapped in poverty than any white person born today into equally poor circumstances.

The second problem I see with your logic chain is your assertion that you or I are somehow "benefitting" from this. The chain of causal links is far too old and impure and branched for any such determination to be made. I see not how I personally benefitted from the Trail of Tears, for instance. Heck I might have been harmed by it somehow too; but there is just no way to know. Again, the chain of events is far too long, branched, chaos-ized, and indirectly linked or non-linked, to make such a determination.

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We should do something about that.

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Yes, and I believe we should try to make sure such tragedies never happen again in this country. That is exactly what we should do in my opinion, and no more. To that end we should work diligently to maintain awareness of any violation of Constitutional rights, as the Constitution/Bill of Rights is by far the best defense we have against any such terrible occurrences in the future.

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Just off the top of my head... we could start by giving them several sizable states, no?

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Well, no, I would say definitely not. That perhaps should have been maybe a hundred years ago and when some of today's states were mere territories, but now it is far too late and would create far more problems than it would solve.

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So others would have to move out (or perhaps abide by some other arrangement). Seems fair to me.

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How could that possibly be fair to those who have built their entire lives in those states? Does it really, really seem fair to you? Do you not think most of the people living there today have earned what they have and based their future on what they have and wherre they live?

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Not sure it would be enough, but it might be a start.

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Today's American Indian tribes have every equal right under the law as well as some specific advantages the law provides them with, including some legal and preferential advantages other U.S. citizens do not have. They get free money, free land and the right to own and operate highly profitable casinos. They are not confined to reservations but can act as full citizens of the U.S. and live anywhere in the U.S. they wish to live. They can pursue any education or career they wish to, and probably will get more assistance or preference in so doing than most other U.S. citizens. Are you saying they need MORE than this? Heck, give me what they have right now and I'd be so ecstatic I'd be turning cartwheels all day long. I really would.

What do you think about this idea: every past major group injustice that occurred throughout history should be retraced and people should be relocated to their original lands, as best as possible, and maybe reparations should be made as well. How many groups would you guess this would apply to? How many groups would be relocated? 100? 1,000? Maybe more? And how do you handle the confounding factor of mixed blood (which is growing increasingly mixed all the time).

I think such notions have no way to be implemented practically or fairly. I think such notions, if implemented, would place a grossly unfair overburden on many people living today, as well as create a grand chaotic mess. I think the best thing is to try to prevent such things from repeating in the future. And I believe today's American Indians and today's blacks have every necessary tool available to improve their situations (as many of them already have done), as well as possessing a few legal tools which others such as poor whites and poor Asians do not possess.

[John Feeney]

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No American Indian today is any more trapped in poverty than any white person born today into equally poor circumstances.

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That is to ignore the power of culture and the ongoing influence of history. What does it do to a culture when its people are murdered en masse, driven from the land they occupy, and forced into tiny tracts of land to live in poverty? How many generations does it take to recover from that?

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The second problem I see with your logic chain is your assertion that you or I are somehow "benefitting" from this. The chain of causal links is far too old and impure and branched for any such determination to be made.

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Yet here you are, sitting on land from which others were driven. Naturally, we can't know what history might have held in store had we not committed that genocide, but we do know our ability to enjoy a comfortable life is in part at the expense of the American Indian.

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Just off the top of my head... we could start by giving them several sizable states, no?

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Well, no, I would say definitely not. That perhaps should have been maybe a hundred years ago and when some of today's states were mere territories, but now it is far too late...

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Where do you draw the line? You know, my grandmother was born just four years after Geronimo surrendered to Crook. It really wasn't that long ago. It may seem a long time to you. Perhaps you're young; I don't know. But if you're older than about 40 you must know how short a time a hundred years or so really is.

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How could that possibly be fair to those who have built their entire lives in those states? Does it really, really seem fair to you?

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Do you think redress should involve no sacrifice on anyone's part?

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What do you think about this idea: every past major group injustice that occurred throughout history should be retraced and people should be relocated to their original lands, as best as possible, and maybe reparations should be made as well.

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Actually, the specific idea I tossed out was just intended to provoke some thought. I don't pretend to know the best solution. But we have done *so* little that there should be plenty to do between nothing and the rather absurd scenario you describe.

[John Feeney]

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Again, who's "we"? What wrongs have you personally committed against "the American Indian" (is there only one?)?

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Come on. pvn, it's like your whole comment is a study in literalism.

Ever hear lines like, "We live, we die, we love, we kill, we worship, we play, we teach..." Some of us don't do all those things, but you know what it means, don't you?

[BCPVP]

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What does it do to a culture when its people are murdered en masse, driven from the land they occupy, and forced into tiny tracts of land to live in poverty?

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What of the Indians who drove other Indians from their lands? North America wasn't just divied up and all the Indians lived in peace and harmony till colonization.

And before the Europeans came, American Indians were essentially living in the Stone Age. I can't think of a poverty much worse than that.

[John Feeney]

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Who's "we"? In order to "give them several sizable states" the party doing the giving would need to own those several sizable states, don't you agree?

If you want to give a native american your house and property, nobody will stop you.


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Oh, I think we could work it out. Surely you must agree we owe the American Indian much more than we've given. We committed genocide, and to make up for it gave them some little reservations and shacks to live in. Then we again took away even those reservations when we deemed it to our benefit to construct dams or what have you.

[John Feeney]

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What of the Indians who drove other Indians from their lands? North America wasn't just divied up and all the Indians lived in peace and harmony till colonization.

And before the Europeans came, American Indians were essentially living in the Stone Age. I can't think of a poverty much worse than that.

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I'll let others respond to this. I'm out of time for now.

[pvn]

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No American Indian today is any more trapped in poverty than any white person born today into equally poor circumstances.

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That is to ignore the power of culture and the ongoing influence of history. What does it do to a culture when its people are murdered en masse, driven from the land they occupy, and forced into tiny tracts of land to live in poverty? How many generations does it take to recover from that?

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How long does it take who to recover? Are we concerned with individuals here or "cultures"? Cultures have no rights.

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The second problem I see with your logic chain is your assertion that you or I are somehow "benefitting" from this. The chain of causal links is far too old and impure and branched for any such determination to be made.

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Yet here you are, sitting on land from which others were driven.

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Presumptive. Natives did not "own" the entire continent.

Also, many of those who were driven had previously driven others off the same land, and sometimes in the process of doing so murdered the previous occupants en masse.

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Naturally, we can't know what history might have held in store had we not committed that genocide,

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Oh I see. You actually participated in a genocide? Never mind, then. You're right, you do have some wrongs you need to right.

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Do you think redress should involve no sacrifice on anyone's part?

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And for those who had no part in the previous wrongs, but are forced to sacrifice because of them, who will be later forced to suffer for those new wrongs?

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Actually, the specific idea I tossed out was just intended to provoke some thought. I don't pretend to know the best solution. But we have done *so* little that there should be plenty to do between nothing and the rather absurd scenario you describe.

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Have you given your house away yet?

[Mickey Brausch]

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Who's "we"?




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Oh, I think we could work it out.

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That is pvn. "We" is a mob-crowded beach with a scary black forest behind it.

[John Feeney]

To John K., pvn, etc.,

I'm sure we could go back and forth for a few weeks, maybe more. I think I see your view clearly enough now that I'll stop here. There's nothing more to be gained.

[pvn]

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Again, who's "we"? What wrongs have you personally committed against "the American Indian" (is there only one?)?

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Come on. pvn, it's like your whole comment is a study in literalism.

Ever hear lines like, "We live, we die, we love, we kill, we worship, we play, we teach..." Some of us don't do all those things, but you know what it means, don't you?

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Yes. When you say "we watch the superbowl" your inclusion of people who aren't actually watching the superbowl is harmless.

But here's the problem - the "we" that committed the wrongs is not the "we" who you are proposing be forced to sacrifice because of them. So I want to be really clear on who "we" (as in "we" who will be forced to sacrifice because of some other we's wrongs) actually is.

If you extend your "we watch the superbowl" to "We (as in the entire population of the USA) watch the superbowl, therefore we should all pay $25 to the NFL," well, I hope you see the problem. I didn't watch the superbowl, so you can expect a hearty "go [censored] yourself" if you try to send me a bill.