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#21
02-26-2007, 07:43 PM
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Re: Of War, Slaughter, and Human Nature
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] When two groups of baboons are in dispute of a territory, they will literally tear each-other apart. When the baboons evolve over a million years and start wearing clothes and invent weapons, like swords and guns, would they stop killing each-other over territorial disputes? When these dressed primates that we call humans are slaughtering each-other, they are just behaving according to the way they are programed by their genes. [/ QUOTE ] I had a dispute with my neighbor. Instead of slaughtering him, I knocked on his door and we talked it out. Why didn't our genes force us to tear each other apart? [/ QUOTE ] Can't humans possess a trait without it being overpowering in all circumstances? I don't see any reasons why humans cannot have some traits which at times push humans in different directions - even in opposite directions - from other traits which they also possess. [/ QUOTE ] Sure, that's possible. But if you read what I was actually responding to: [ QUOTE ] When the baboons evolve over a million years and start wearing clothes and invent weapons, like swords and guns, would they stop killing each-other over territorial disputes? [/ QUOTE ] The answer is clearly "yes", since I didn't kill anyone when my neighbor put his garbage can on my side of the property line. [ QUOTE ] I think you're trying to argue that human nature is not ALWAYS inherently savage - and of course I agree. [/ QUOTE ] Wait, if something is inherent, then it is always inherent. That's what inherent means. "Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic." [ QUOTE ] Also, your example is complicated and tainted by the fact that the aplication of your intelligence to the problem leads to the conclusion that it is in your best interest to resolve the matter peaceably. That of course may in turn depend on the fact that the two of you are in modern society and not stranded on a desert island somewhere forever with perhaps only a tiny village. [/ QUOTE ] If such traits of peacible existence are so easily developed, their opposites can hardly be an intrinsic part of human nature. [ QUOTE ] How far off is Lord of the Flies from human nature? [/ QUOTE ] How far? I dunno, but it's clearly greater than "zero". [ QUOTE ] I don't think it is spot on but I don't think such things can be ruled out of human nature either. And history has shown an immense amount of ruthlessness and savagery through the ages. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody disputes history. We can come up with all sorts of activities that have been repeated millions of times through the ages. There's an immense amount of bloodletting throughout the ages. Human nature? How about belief in a geocentric universe? Human nature? [/ QUOTE ] I don't know. I don't see any reason why humans cannot have intrinsic qualities that are incongruous with or opposite from other intrinsic qualities that they may possess. Why can't humans have both the instinctual urges to help others and to harm others? The human entity is complex enough that I don't see why opposite qualities cannot both be present. Conditions may then help determine which qualities come to the forefront. This should give humans capability to deal with wide ranges of situations. Responses may not always be appropriate or optimal for a given situation, but at least the options are there. Animals have both nurturing cooperative instincts as well as savage ruthless fighting instincts. I don't see why humans can't have the same. 
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#23
02-26-2007, 08:28 PM
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Re: Of War, Slaughter, and Human Nature
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Wait, if something is inherent, then it is always inherent. That's what inherent means. "Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic." [/ QUOTE ] But the degree can vary. Even if War is inherent to us, it doesn't mean that we all will conflict to the same level, with the same consistency, and over the same issues. Remarking that you didn't kill your neighbor over a garbage can doesn't refute the idea that humans are inherently savage. Also, i am not saying that humans are inherently savage.
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#24
02-26-2007, 08:41 PM
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Re: Of War, Slaughter, and Human Nature
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] When two groups of baboons are in dispute of a territory, they will literally tear each-other apart. When the baboons evolve over a million years and start wearing clothes and invent weapons, like swords and guns, would they stop killing each-other over territorial disputes? When these dressed primates that we call humans are slaughtering each-other, they are just behaving according to the way they are programed by their genes. [/ QUOTE ] I had a dispute with my neighbor. Instead of slaughtering him, I knocked on his door and we talked it out. Why didn't our genes force us to tear each other apart? [/ QUOTE ] When two baboons belonging to the same group have a dispute, usually about food, they can have an argument, using scare-tactics or even little violence. If they break the rules of the group by using to much violence, the leader steps in, (the strongest of the baboons, or in human society the police) and ends the dispute. Two members of a group having a dispute, is quit different from two different groups having a dispute. At the moment in Baghdad different groups have disputes with each-other. They are not literary tearing each-other apart, but with all the head-chopping, they come very close!
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#25
02-27-2007, 03:35 AM
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Cogito
This is well trodden ground - even for 2+2ers (or, at least, veteran 2+2ers).
Man's penchant for slaughter and mayhem arises from what Swift alluded to, Goethe waxed poetically about, Nietzsche proclaimed in words of fire, and Freud became rather pessimistic about in his later stage : Man's subconscious realisation of his own unavoidable mortality -- and, worse, insignifcance. In the quest to escape his fate, Man will play God - by killing and destroying, quite unlike other animals, for reasons that have little to do with survival. All cultures are systems of hero-making, hero-worshipping denial of death. When all is said and done, we can only look at human history as the manifestation of neurosis. Man is a walking disease. This is the crux. All strands of thought begin here. Grit your teeth. And proceed with extreme trepidation. Mickey Brausch
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#26
02-27-2007, 07:21 AM
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Re: Cogito
[ QUOTE ]
This is well trodden ground - even for 2+2ers (or, at least, veteran 2+2ers). Man's penchant for slaughter and mayhem arises from what Swift alluded to, Goethe waxed poetically about, Nietzsche proclaimed in words of fire, and Freud became rather pessimistic about in his later stage : Man's subconscious realisation of his own unavoidable mortality -- and, worse, insignifcance. In the quest to escape his fate, Man will play God - by killing and destroying, quite unlike other animals, for reasons that have little to do with survival. All cultures are systems of hero-making, hero-worshipping denial of death. When all is said and done, we can only look at human history as the manifestation of neurosis. Man is a walking disease. This is the crux. All strands of thought begin here. Grit your teeth. And proceed with extreme trepidation. Mickey Brausch [/ QUOTE ] That's really interesting. I must say I had never thought of that before. At least some parts of it ring true (and maybe more) and I'll have to muse on these things further. Thanks for the most interesting post in this thread.
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#27
02-28-2007, 05:15 PM
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Re: Cogito
[ QUOTE ]
This is well trodden ground - even for 2+2ers (or, at least, veteran 2+2ers). Man's penchant for slaughter and mayhem arises from what Swift alluded to, Goethe waxed poetically about, Nietzsche proclaimed in words of fire, and Freud became rather pessimistic about in his later stage : Man's subconscious realisation of his own unavoidable mortality -- and, worse, insignifcance. In the quest to escape his fate, Man will play God - by killing and destroying, quite unlike other animals, for reasons that have little to do with survival. All cultures are systems of hero-making, hero-worshipping denial of death. When all is said and done, we can only look at human history as the manifestation of neurosis. Man is a walking disease. This is the crux. All strands of thought begin here. Grit your teeth. And proceed with extreme trepidation. Mickey Brausch [/ QUOTE ] Very good post MB.
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#28
02-28-2007, 05:28 PM
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Re: Cogito
[ QUOTE ]
This is well trodden ground - even for 2+2ers (or, at least, veteran 2+2ers). Man's penchant for slaughter and mayhem arises from what Swift alluded to, Goethe waxed poetically about, Nietzsche proclaimed in words of fire, and Freud became rather pessimistic about in his later stage : Man's subconscious realisation of his own unavoidable mortality -- and, worse, insignifcance. In the quest to escape his fate, Man will play God - by killing and destroying, quite unlike other animals, for reasons that have little to do with survival. All cultures are systems of hero-making, hero-worshipping denial of death. When all is said and done, we can only look at human history as the manifestation of neurosis. Man is a walking disease. This is the crux. All strands of thought begin here. Grit your teeth. And proceed with extreme trepidation. Mickey Brausch [/ QUOTE ] Monsters from the id.
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