Reraise gone wrong

[Bond18]

Stars 20/r/a
Button is tightish at 14/7 over 50. He hasn't attacked my BB yet in about half an hour at the table.
His stack 5600
My stack 8000

Blinds 100/200

I am BB holding J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: Folds to button, button raises to 600, SB folds, hero reraises to 2000, button calls.

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero?


Thats about as bad a flop i could of asked for. If he has about 5000 in his stack at start of hand i likely just push from BB but i thought he was a hair deep (maybe not?)

Whats your move on this awful flop?

[xdeucesx]

I think check/folding sucks but is probably the best line to take.

[WarDekar]

Let's see we have 4100 in the pot, he has 3600 left and you have 6000 left.

This is an ugly, ugly flop for you, as even if he didn't hit an A or Q he can easily like this enough to push anything you do. If you check to him I think he has to be pushing the flop and you're sent folding, so the only way you're taking this is by betting right now.

I hate doing this, but I want to just lead out 1600 or so and fold to a push despite the ridiculous odds you'd be getting. At that point you know he either has an A or a Q and you're drawing to 2 outs, or in the very best case for you he has a flush draw and maybe straight draw and over along with it.

Personally I would've raised to 1800 or so PF, maybe even 1600. That keeps the pot small enough to where you can lead out a probe bet on the flop and still get away from it if he pushes. As it stands that is VERY hard to do. The pot is just way too big here for your stack sizes, and raising to 1600 or so PF he's still going to lay down anything he would've laid down to 2k, so why build the pot bigger than necessary?

I want to try and lead this flop but with stack sizes I just can't justify I don't think. I think you bet 3k and hope he folds. [censored] spot but I can't get myself to check/fold with a pot that big. He's folding any PP here, could be folding a Q giving you credit for an A, etc. He could also be calling flush draws which you're ahead of slightly.

[Ansky]

check

[Bond18]

We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

With most opponents when you hit them for 2000 it says "your about to be all in on the flop anyway" so i expect them to fold/shove either of which i'm fine with.

[Ansky]

[ QUOTE ]
We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

[WarDekar]

[ QUOTE ]
We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

With most opponents when you hit them for 2000 it says "your about to be all in on the flop anyway" so i expect them to fold/shove either of which i'm fine with.

[/ QUOTE ]

But then you're stuck in the situation you're at on this flop if they call and you're OOP. You have to consider stack sizes when re-raising. Hell I would've probably pushed PF rather than raising to 2k in this spot. As I said I just hate raising to 2k here as it builds the pot way too big and you have no idea how to play post-flop if overs hit.

If he's gonna fold to 1400 more, I think he's folding to 1-1.2k more as well. As played, you either have to check/fold the flop or put him in. I would not push the flop though, I'd bet like 1/2-3/4 of his remaining stack to sort of beg for a call.

[Bond18]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

[cjx]

I dunno, bet fold? I was thinking bet around 2k, but maybe you could get away with betting less. As he'll be committed by anything around 1500 or so... if he calls, check fold check fold.

cjx

[WarDekar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was saying both of you were incorrect in your plays. I think, and I agree. He should've just shoved PF if he wanted to call your re-raise, and you should've either bet less to keep the pot small or shoved to begin with (or effective shove). As it stands you bet the 1 amount that makes this flop unplayable, and sacraficed 2000 chips by check-folding the flop.

You have to realize you're trying to make him make a mistake for you to gain EV. He may have made a mistake by calling your PF raise, but not if you're simply just going to check fold a scary flop with overs. What are you doing if this flop has Axx? Kxx? I'd like to hear what your plan is for a range of flops, because as you played this I think you're just donking off chips.

What are you doing on a T-high flop? I just don't see you getting paid off by worse hands here post-flop, and if you aren't going to push the flop then you can't get him to fold a better hand.