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#41
02-27-2007, 12:27 AM
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Re: TPNK OOP vs spaz
this whole "betting to see where I'm at" nonsense is why bluffraising flop oop bets has become so ridiculously profitable, and why betting QT to "see whats up" can get exploited huge, and this is just the villain that will raise hands that beat and lose to QT, making hero in a tough, probably -EV spot.
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#42
02-27-2007, 12:28 AM
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Re: TPNK OOP vs spaz
[ QUOTE ]
Given how likely he is to bluff, according to you, why doesn't he bluff raise us? Why does Hero "have" to fold is this villian raises the flop? I sure as hell wouldn't. ... Hero is not *looking* for a "great amount of action" here. He's looking to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind, and he will only know the difference between these two is he is a bettor, not a caller. Hero is looking to get a lot of action when he's got a killer hand, not a marginal one--with a marginal one he's looking to make good decisions. [/ QUOTE ] Errm, way to completely contradict yourself. And you wonder why every SSNL thread you participate in turns into a trainwreck ..
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#43
02-27-2007, 12:40 AM
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Re: TPNK OOP vs spaz
1: We have seen villain min3b 22 OOP and cbet an ATT flop. He then bluff CRed the ATT 4 Q board. This guy has some moves, whether they are good or not cant be determined.
Then let him make one on you on the flop. Or bet out and avoid having him make moves. Make your decisions easier and his actions more reliable. Checking just because you've seen him bluff before is ridiculous because of the combined chance you'll be outdrawn, are behind now, and that you'll be forced to fold a winner if he makes a move you can't call. 2: This board is dry and we have a medium strength hand. He is much more likely to fire this board because it rarely hits our hand. Yeah, so let him raise you on the flop if you think you're very often ahead here. If you want him to "fire" and don't have a plan for what you're going to do when an overcard hits the turn, then why are you playing this way? Is your plan to call down a marginal strength hand all the way to showdown, investing 100BBs in it because he might be bluffing the whole way? Again, make your decisions easier by betting like you should. If this guy has moves, make sure you can interpret them more accurately. Being a calling station because he's been caught bluffing or folding a winner because he puts too much heat on you is usually not a sign of good decision making. 3: We cant be TOO happy about getting AI, but we want to get max value from spaztards whacky bluffs and such. This just makes no sense when you don't play in such a way so as to be able to distinguish a bluff from legitimate strength. Your strategy appears to come down to "I've seen him bluff before, I hope he is bluffing this time, I hope he continues to bluff for the entire hand (even though a smooth call on the flop reeks of strength even to a maniac), I hope that I don't get outdrawn, and I hope I'm not behind right now." That's a lot of hope. I prefer knowledge. 4: We dont know if he raises flop donks frequently or just folds to them. He can be really loose for the first bet but tighten up considerably if someone raises him or leads. We also don't know if he fires three barrels with air, calls a flop donk light, raises a flop donk light, or anything else. So maybe we shouldn't get too godamn fancy, since we don't know what the hell is going on for the rest of the hand when we do? 5: Getting him to fold a worse hand SUCKS. We lose value by not letting him bluff. Yeah and getting outdrawn sucks, folding a winner when he puts too much pressure on you sucks, calling down a loser sucks, and having him shut down his bluffing after your flop smooth call sort of sucks. All of these things are more likely to happen when you play as you did. When you bet out, there is a chance he will instantly fold a hand he would have bluffed once with. I'll take that chance when it means I know where I'm at more clearly at most points in the hand, when I will STILL get value from him when he calls me down with 99, for example. You're forgetting (conveniently) the possibility that he will still call you and make his bluff later in the hand when you can pick it off. And you have a MUCH better chance of picking it off correctly when you bet the flop. Sigh. This is such a simple hand and such a simple set of concepts, but it's obvious some of you just don't get it. I really no longer care, because this forum is so rarely about rational argument anymore. It's just a dick-waving contest now, and it's tiring and frustrating.
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#45
02-27-2007, 12:43 AM
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Re: TPNK OOP vs spaz
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Given how likely he is to bluff, according to you, why doesn't he bluff raise us? Why does Hero "have" to fold is this villian raises the flop? I sure as hell wouldn't. ... Hero is not *looking* for a "great amount of action" here. He's looking to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind, and he will only know the difference between these two is he is a bettor, not a caller. Hero is looking to get a lot of action when he's got a killer hand, not a marginal one--with a marginal one he's looking to make good decisions. [/ QUOTE ] Errm, way to completely contradict yourself. And you wonder why every SSNL thread you participate in turns into a trainwreck .. [/ QUOTE ] You need to look up the meaning of "contradict". Getting raised once is not necessarily "a lot of action". And calling that raise may make villian's actions later in the hand much more reliable. As I said, against this player I'm not folding to a raise, though I suppose a monster raise would force that. I bet the flop because I am so often ahead, even when villian raises it (a normal amount).
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#47
02-27-2007, 12:49 AM
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Re: TPNK OOP vs spaz
[ QUOTE ]
this whole "betting to see where I'm at" nonsense is why bluffraising flop oop bets has become so ridiculously profitable, and why betting QT to "see whats up" can get exploited huge, and this is just the villain that will raise hands that beat and lose to QT, making hero in a tough, probably -EV spot. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah so the answer is to just call him down and hope we're ahead the whole way and don't get outdrawn or get blown off a winner? Ridiculous. Bet when we're likely ahead, get money in the pot while ahead, make villian pay for more cards, make villian's actions more reliable later on, and use the information the bets give you to make good decisions. This is BASIC stuff. I'm done with this thread. You're so entrenched in your position you can't even consider the merits betting the flop. Typical.
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#50
02-27-2007, 12:53 AM
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Re: TPNK OOP vs spaz
[ QUOTE ]
Is he going to be calling you down with a hand you beat though? If he is an aggressive maniac, let him bluff off his chips. You just don't get it, do you? [/ QUOTE ] But when you don't bet the flop ... YOU CAN'T TELL WHEN HE'S BLUFFING. YOU HAVE TO JUST FRIGGIN HOPE THE WHOLE HAND THAT HE IS, AND THAT HE HASN"T OUTDRAWN YOU. Jesus christ on a stick why is this so effing hard to understand!?
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