$6.50 - Shoving over blinds w/ limpers in late levels (2 hands)

[Kevin8423]

I've started to make these plays in certain situations when I'm low on chips with the reasoning that the limper called because their hand wasn't good enough to shove, and they will likely fold if someone comes over the top. Are these standard plays or am I wrong to be shoving in spots similar to these?

Hand 1:

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t150 (7 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1800)
UTG+1 (t1435)
MP1 (t4125)
CO (t860)
Hero (t1140)
SB (t2145)
BB (t1995)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls t150, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t1140 (All-in)</font>


Hand 2:

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t935)
UTG+1 (t2315)
CO (t3330)
Hero (t1325)
SB (t3530)
BB (t2065)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, CO calls t200, <font color="red">Hero raises to t1325 (All-in)</font>

[Frozinite]

I don't like both of them, especially the second one. You don't have a great deal of fold equity there and you will most likely get screwed if/when he calls.

[OatmealJoe]

I don't like hand #1. Usually an UTG limper has a much stronger hand than a CO/BTN limper. As such, of the two, I think hand #2 would be a better spot to push.

[Kevin8423]

Well I'm stealing the blinds with these hands without the limper, and from what I've seen usually these limpers do end up folding, so I think its very likely I have enough FE to make this a shove. Occasionally they call and flip a small PP which isn't great, but we have outs. I don't see them calling, they would of raised if they had a hand worth risking their stack with.

[tsearcher]

I think this is very read dependent. Some players will limp and fold to an all in almost every time. Others, can't fold once they have limped in.

Both hands are at best coin flips against an average limping hand. So I guess the answer depends on how likely it is that limper will fold and what the blinds calling ranges are.

[jgunnip]

problem is they still call you with Q7s and crap. You can make a very good roi without making these plays at this level.

and a general note, beware of utg limpers. I actually don't mind hand two, A4s is defintely at the low end of my range.

[Kibby]

[ QUOTE ]
problem is they still call you with Q7s and crap. You can make a very good roi without making these plays at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a key point. Both of these moves are read dependent. While you MIGHT be correct, you're better off not pushing marginal hands. You need to see the limpers either
1) Giving up hands to push overs more than once
2) In hand 1, know that they'll call with weaker As

[Kevin8423]

In hand one I'm fairly short for these blinds. I either get a fold and pick up 2.5BB or get called and I would be fine seeing a weaker ace. This short I'm looking for edges like Ax over Ax I don't see how that is a problem. If they draw out I just reload another.

I think the only problem that I could encounter (not necessarily at 6.50s but in the future) is if people limp monsters UTG or in early position looking to get raised.

The only reason I am making moves like these is because with an aggressive table I could miss the chance to steal blinds (assuming I don't get a big hand) if other people raise when im CO or the button, then I'll be extremely short. Seems like two decent spots to take a chance at grabbing a sizable amount of chips.

[RexWoo]

I like the first but not the second as you're too short and CO is too deep (+ you hand is worse)

[jgunnip]

[ QUOTE ]
This short I'm looking for edges like Ax over Ax I don't see how that is a problem. If they draw out I just reload another.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the 6.5s you can afford to be a little more patient than ata 16 or 27 where you won't see as many late game edges and opponents don't knock each other out as easily. Being able to play a 6-8BB stack optimally at 75/150 and 100/200 is key to a good roi (~20%) at the 6.5s. Pushing at best v small edges like these will only increase your swings. Because 6.5 donks are looser it pays to error a little bit on the patient side.