4-8 hand flop play bugging me

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[I never assumed that, at this limit I expect anyone who paired up with an over card to turn if the already called, but hopefully any remaining players to act will fold to two bets if the pair on the turn with an overcard to a raise with the highly coordinated board. 100% free showdown in most scenarios unless hero spikes an A on the river [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with the river. Though a 6 is good too.

Basically, you're hoping the initial flop bettor is the one that bets the turn. Anyone else, and you're pretty much gone on the turn(card depending). This is a little different than the TT hand in SSHE. Though it's also very similar. Because pretty much every card sucks for you. You're holding your breath when you make this raise on the turn.

In this case though, I think it could go either way on the flop. Primarily because you can get people to incorrectly fold with a flop raise. But if you're facing the blinds and the button with 6-1(12-2 figuring the MPs will both call 1 more bet), and they have 2 overcards with no flush cards, they're not getting odds to hit, nor the overlay for the flush redraw.

It's close enough that I think even folding the flop is an option.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise it up sir, and fire again on the turn.

1. You'll take control of the hand
2. You'll see where you're at, i.e. MP1 reraises or turn c/r's, flush draw coldcalls, etc etc
3. You'll probably get rid of two opponents, possibly three
4. You'll punish the draws

The double-suited board makes no difference with an OESD out there. The draws must be punished regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

3. You're likely not getting 3 opponents to fold here. You're trying to get the blinds out.

4. You're not punishing the draws near as much as you would if you waited for the turn. Your goal would be to get overcards out.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgot the button was in. So yes, 3 people might fold here. My mistake.

b

[ScottieK]

Thanks for your comments everyone. I strongly considered folding as bernie pointed out, and that's why this hand was bugging me....I just couldn't bring myself to fold TPTK for a single bet. Results-oriented thinking, but maybe I should have.

Two aces (can't count the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) and two sixes are the only good cards that I can look for on the turn. If I raise on the flop, the best I can hope for is to get the button and blinds to fold. The MP's will call with who knows what (guessing maybe a pair / overpair for MP1 and overcards or a straight/flush draw for MP2), and then I've got to bet the turn unless a scare card comes....or even regardless of what the turn is, maybe representing two pair or a set. Hopefully they would fold, but I doubt it. Of course, I could be dead on the flop already to a made straight or two pair.

Since just about everything is a scare card for me, I just called on the flop to see if I could get a relatively safe card or improvement on the turn. I did think about the concept of raising on the turn instead of the flop with a scary board as mentioned in SSHE and in some of your posts, so that's what I went with. I was just hoping no one behind me would raise on the flop, which I think I would have to call.

Button folded, SB folded, BB called.

Turn (5BB): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, I fold.

Well, that's about the least safe card I could have seen. Pretty convinced MP2 just got what he was asking for.

BB folds, MP1 calls.

River (9BB) : J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

MP1 checks, MP2 bets, MP1 folds.

ScottieK

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your comments everyone. I strongly considered folding as bernie pointed out, and that's why this hand was bugging me....I just couldn't bring myself to fold TPTK for a single bet. Results-oriented thinking, but maybe I should have.

Two aces (can't count the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) and two sixes are the only good cards that I can look for on the turn. If I raise on the flop, the best I can hope for is to get the button and blinds to fold. The MP's will call with who knows what (guessing maybe a pair / overpair for MP1 and overcards or a straight/flush draw for MP2), and then I've got to bet the turn unless a scare card comes....or even regardless of what the turn is, maybe representing two pair or a set. Hopefully they would fold, but I doubt it. Of course, I could be dead on the flop already to a made straight or two pair.

Since just about everything is a scare card for me, I just called on the flop to see if I could get a relatively safe card or improvement on the turn. I did think about the concept of raising on the turn instead of the flop with a scary board as mentioned in SSHE and in some of your posts, so that's what I went with. I was just hoping no one behind me would raise on the flop, which I think I would have to call.

Button folded, SB folded, BB called.

Turn (5BB): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, I fold.

Well, that's about the least safe card I could have seen. Pretty convinced MP2 just got what he was asking for.

BB folds, MP1 calls.

River (9BB) : J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

MP1 checks, MP2 bets, MP1 folds.

ScottieK

[/ QUOTE ]

The button and SB folding is nice.

That's a real tough spot to be in on a flop. Much tougher than the TT hand in SSHE. At least in that, there's some obvious safe cards. Especially if you're letting the 3 others in behind you on a 6 high board. I think you played it fine.

I just saw a similar hand played on my table last week. The guy raised the flop, then checked the turn and I can't remember the river. Basically, you'd be trying to get a cheap showdown with this. You don't have enough to jam with and any raise you're gone(unless from a real LAGgy player maybe).

This reminds me of a hand Roy Cooke wrote about where he folded AA on a bad flop. I think there was another hand in midstakes recently that did that too. Though I think it was 2 bets to them in those cases(can't remember), imo, it's kind of the same thing as far as the spot you're in.

I think there are merits to all 3. Waiting to raise, raising the flop(though someone could 3 bet you with a draw) and folding.

Interesting hand.

b