Is it a muck?

[jjflash]

I am not sure that this is the perfect place to ask this question. If it should be posted somewhere else then I apologize. With that said, here is my question:

The other night I was playing a low limit NLHE game. This is a regular game that I play in and know most of the people that play. Just for reference, the blinds are 0.25/0.50 and usually someone straddles for $1.00.
The player in question is not a regular player but does show up from time to time (not that it should make a difference in the example that I am going to give.)

Not going into the specifics of the hand, I was betting AQs all the way to the river and was getting called by Villian all the way. At the river, the board read A677K, in that order. I bet out on the river, I turn over AQS, Villian mucks one card and flashes an Ace in his hand. He is about to muck the Ace, when another player pipes up and says it's a slit pot. Now I don't mind splitting the pot there. I put him on a weak Ace and just got unlucky when the King came off on the river. But my question is, if someone mucks one card, is his hand dead? Like I said, I didn't make a big deal over it and gratiously split the pot. It was only later that I got to wondering about how this would be ruled in bigger games or in a casino.

Thanks for any thoughts on the subject.

[Death Valley]

According to the letter of the law this is considered a dead hand. That being said, most casinos would split the pot, and it surely should be split in a home game with a waning that both cards must be shown

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
and it surely should be split in a home game with a waning that both cards must be shown

[/ QUOTE ]

and you want to see both cards to make sure there isn't a bad deck (extra cards) involved.

[Small Fry]

First time offense a warning is in order. After that the hand is dead as you need to show both cards to win in a show down.

Secod issue is the other player speaking up. Technically this violates the "one player per hand" rule. Once again players should be warned about discussing hands in play or how they're being played. This would be different if the player had turned both his cards face up thinking he lost by being outkicked by the Queen. Then the cards speak and it's approporiate for other players to speak up to make sure the hand is ruled properly. But by your description he was folding so it was another player calling his hand that caused him to change his action.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
and you want to see both cards to make sure there isn't a bad deck (extra cards) involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree cards should be shown for showdown (tho' this is relaxed often in home games), but this reasoning always seems a bit weird. If it's folded to one person, that person doesn't have to show to make sure it isn't a bad deck. I suppose showing all cards in a showdown helps the collusion thing, but that's about all I can think of, and that's not the reason the rule gives.

It's like a rack on the table voiding a jackpot. Why? How? No, racks are annoying and hold up the game when people play out of them. Since all you little fishies are here for the jackpot, we say you can't get one if you play out of a rack.

[jjflash]

Thank you all for you insights. These are the things that I also felt should apply. Like I mentioned, this was a "friendly home game" (is there such a thing"). But I think that we should implement some of these rules so as to avoid conflict in the future.

Thanks again.

[PantsOnFire]

A card or cards thrown in the muck are not necesarily dead. In Robert's Rules of Poker, a hand can be retreived from the much at management's discretion if the card or cards can be clearly identified.

So if villain's card was still on the table in plain view, then he can get it back and show his two cards for the split. If the dealer had collected the cards and gathered them when this happened, then villain is out of luck (well at a casino anyways).

As far as the other player stating the split pot, it is the dealer who should be in charge of decisions like that.

However, at a home game, I think this situation played out like it should.

At a casino, I would likely have called the floor over to make a ruling in the off chance that he would award me the full pot.

At a home game, split the pot and move on.

[SuperPokerJedi]

Both cards need to be shown so that it's definite that there aren't any duplicate cards in opponent's hands as on the flop. Depending on the atmosphere though I wouldn't really sweat it in a small game!!!!

[GiantBuddha]

The best hand should win the pot. Or split the pot. Or the second best hand should split the pot when it sucks out. I think you did the right thing in the spot you were in. Personally, I prefer to beat the other players within the rules, not because they don't understand the rules.

[killsadie]

hand dead. ship pot.