To bet or checkraise. Two live 4/8 hands

[JoeyT]

Why do I have such a problem making the decision on when to bet and when to checkraise? I still think I hate the 2nd hand, maybe on every street!

Both of these are at the same nine handed 4/8 table. Very loose passive. The only tough player is to my immediate right but he wasn't in either of these hands. Villain in hand 1 plays literally every hand. Villain in hand 2 just sat down.. seems very loose and predictable.

Hand 1: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in bb. EP limper, MP limper, sb completes, I check.

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players, 4 SB)

sb checks, I check planning to raise the EP limper who usually just bets anything, but it checks around.

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (4 players, 2 BB)

sb checks, I bet, EP limper calls, fold, fold.

8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (2 players, 4 BB)

I bet, villain calls.

I don't know if I like the flop or the turn.

Hand 2: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in bb. UTG raises (seems like the next most reasonable player at the table. doens't get out of line often). 4 cold callers, sb calls, I call. 7 to the flop.

9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players, 14 SB)

I check (and HATED it as soon as I tapped the felt to check. Usually I think for a second but I instachecked and didn't like it). UTG bets, 3 callers, I raise, UTG folds, others call.

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] (4 players, 11 BB)

I bet, 2 players call.

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] (3 players, 14 BB)

I check, MP checks, button bets and says "97 no good anymore?". I look left and see that MP is folding, so I crycall.

Help.

[habsfanca11]

Scottie, you've got to think first as to what you're trying to accomplish. Both cases you're got bottom 2 and your hand needs to be protected (to the extent that you can at low limits) and to get value while you're ahead. Hand 1 I think is OK, especailly because you believe you're getting a bet to try to check-raise. Hand 2 give your relative position I think a bet 3 bet is better. Its low limit - your chances of protecting your hand against a flush draw a non-existent, but you'll never have a better chance with the pre-flop raiser sitting on your left.
Hand 1 is fine - you didn't get a bet from where you reasonably expected on from. Hand 2 I think is bet-3 bet and lead a non-heart turn.

[James.]

JT,

hand 1, bet. the pot's small so we encourage hands to call that don't have the proper odds because we make money from them.

hand 2, checkraise. the pot's big and there is no way a bet out does anything to really help as 2 outers are probably correct to call. at least a c/r will give you a chance to eliminate some of the field if it comes from LP. if EP bets, at least you still jam the pot when you are likely ahead and it may encourage EP bettor to 3bet a worse hand to help clear the field for you.

[Man of Means]

Hand 1 you bet the flop and 3bet if someone raises. Giving a free card sucks.

Hand 2 looks like an OK way to play it. (We generally call in the BB with any two suited with this many callers, right?) If you had a read that UTG might raise you if you bet out, that's one way to protect your hand.
The other possibility, and not a very popular one is to just call UTG's flop bet and lead a non-flush, non-straight turn. This way you've kept the pot a little smaller.

The river could go either way, check/fold or check/call.

[*TT*]

hand 1 - bet the flop. Bet the turn as played, and consider a river check raise if the villain's range includes an A and will always bet if checked to.

hand 2 - If villain is the type to raise then I will lead into the field with a bet. Check raising the field has merits in building a big pot but it doesn't protect the hero's hand - and it needs to be protected to avoid getting counterfeited hence I prefer the leading bet more if we smell a raise coming (the c/r isn't bad however).

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[bernie]

In passive games, tend to bet out more than go for the c/r. Obvioius reasons.

Hand 1: Bet out. Pot's small enough that a bet is good.

Hand 2: I'm not c/r raising/betting out until the turn.

Edit: although, betting into a sure raise on the flop(per TT's response) is a nice idea.

b

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in bb. EP limper, MP limper, sb completes, I check.

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players, 4 SB)

sb checks, I check planning to raise the EP limper who usually just bets anything, but it checks around.

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (4 players, 2 BB)

sb checks, I bet, EP limper calls, fold, fold.

8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (2 players, 4 BB)

I bet, villain calls.



[/ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop. The board is ragged, a naked ace may stick around and no one will see 96 coming.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in bb. UTG raises (seems like the next most reasonable player at the table. doens't get out of line often). 4 cold callers, sb calls, I call. 7 to the flop.

9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players, 14 SB)

I check (and HATED it as soon as I tapped the felt to check. Usually I think for a second but I instachecked and didn't like it). UTG bets, 3 callers, I raise, UTG folds, others call.

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] (4 players, 11 BB)

I bet, 2 players call.

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] (3 players, 14 BB)

I check, MP checks, button bets and says "97 no good anymore?". I look left and see that MP is folding, so I crycall.

Help.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the PF raiser you're in a bad spot to get protection. Check-raising the flop here is only for building a pot (if you had the flush draw and a bunch of opponents). Check-raising the flop puts 19 SB in there with four players who only have to call one single-sized bet.

Doing it on the turn could get someone else to fold (players do stink or wake up at this level). And they may fold if UTG leads again.

The best way I can think to protect your hand is to lead out if you believe UTG will raise the flop.

[UtzChips]

Hand 1 was an excellent one to go for a check raise. You had a high expectation of EP to bet out on the Flop and a huge overlay in pot equity against possible calling hands that you had beat, i.e.:
35% pot equity against: KdQd/8s7s/Ad9s
43% pot equity against: KdQd/8s7s/JcTc

If EP had bet any callers would have called one more bet and you therefore would have been building a nice pot with an even nicer overlay.
You have to bet out on the Turn & River. You can no longer count on anyone else betting your hand for you.

Hand 2 I find nothing wrong with your play, except that I would try and learn to read your opponents. When the Button announced "I guess 97 isn't any good anymore" he is trying to sell something. A "sales pitch" by an opponent is one of the easiest things to learn to read. Knowing what it is that they are trying to sell can earn/save you a bundle.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 was an excellent one to go for a check raise. You had a high expectation of EP to bet out on the Flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's this high expectation of a bet coming from in this passive game? It would really kind of suck if it checked to an LP and they bet. Pot's not really big enough to c/r for protection here. Easy bet out.

b

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 was an excellent one to go for a check raise. You had a high expectation of EP to bet out on the Flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's this high expectation of a bet coming from in this passive game? It would really kind of suck if it checked to an LP and they bet. Pot's not really big enough to c/r for protection here. Easy bet out.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is OP's statement under the Flop:

sb checks, I check planning to raise the EP limper who usually just bets anything, but it checks around.