crying call ? 78s OOP baby flush vs running Aces

[matrix]

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $12.25
UTG+1: $7.70
CO: $25.25
Button: $23.05
Hero: $36.35
BB: $65.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $1</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4, 4 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $2.5</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($11.5, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $5</font>, BB calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 calls all-in $4.2</font>.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($25.7, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $24.1, Sidepot 1: $1.6)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $6</font>, Hero calls.

yeah yeah I know fold preflop.

seeing as I didn't and have got myself into this mess I gotta call here right??

shortstack is an idiot.

villain has AK/AQ/AJ I think - probably AQ going by flop action I suppose.

Does he have trips bad kicker often enough here to make the call - or is the river a clear fold?

Don't care what shortstack has who is *terrible* - if I had to guess I'd say a set or a better flush than me. He insta-called the turn.

BB is 34/17/1.5 loose/passive

[barryc83]

I think you have to call the river given those odds. I'd probably lead the river for value honestly. He's shown zero strength in this hand and you could very well have the best hand.

Yes, fold pf. I've been making these calls pf and getting in these spots that couldve been avoided by just folding pf.

[EMc]

PF is fine matrix, you have the experience to play this hand postflop.

Valueblock the river?

[Supwithbates]

[ QUOTE ]
PF is fine matrix, you have the experience to play this hand postflop.

Valueblock the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was going to say, I never fold suited connectors in a family pot like this, even OOP I think I can get enough value for a positive expectation.

[Pokey]

Preflop is unfortunate, but completely understandable and correct. I'd complete that every day of the week. After BB raises you're closing the action with your overcall, your hand does not suffer from domination issues, and you've got wicked pot- and implied-odds. Sigh and call.

Given your reads I think I like a CRAI on the flop. You trap BB for a c-bet, you put him in an incredibly awkward situation where he's likely to fold even a good hand, you get massive pot odds on your draw (+EV) and you get great table image as a gamboooler. You WILL get called by shorty, so recognize that your table image is going to change; however, if you adjust accordingly that will be to your benefit.

As played, juice the turn more. I'd make it $9 or so -- hit BB where it hurts if he's got an ace or a queen (or both).

The river call is thin but +EV. Make your crying call and swear when he shows you AQ, but recognize that he could have AK or something stranger, and that you only need to have the best hand a tiny fraction of the time for calling to be +EV. That's why they call 'em crying: not because you expect to win, but because the rare wins are just often enough to be +EV over the long run.

[melioris]

I like preflop.

I think you make the decision on the flop. You have 12 outs again any made hand. If you think the dead money in the pot plus any FE is worth it, then you have to c/PSR on the flop. Esp considering BB is loose/passive and deep stacked. You are OOP, so get the money in earlier here, take control of this hand, and minimize your positional and stack disadvantage.

[matrix]

I tend toi fold these preflop often - I called this time thinking - ooh family pot lets get me some 4way implied odds r us action - once BB raises I plan on folding - until everyone else calls as well so now I gotta see the flop.

The more I think about it the more I like c/r-allin on the flop.

Turn: I figured BB was CB bluffing the flop so I bet enough to put shorty all-in expecting him to fold and leave the pot between shorty and me. I think I make more mistakes in pots where there's a shortstack who almost def going to be all-in by the river. Looking at it again I need to make a turn bet thats big enough to be +EV by itself for the times I am beat by the shortstack but beat BB and just scoop the side pot.

As played I've "invested" ~$8 by the river and the sidepots only $1.60 - better to bet more on the turn and hopefully pot commit deep stacked LP villain so he calls a nice fat river value bet again with his TPTK/2pair hand

[ajmargarine]

Matty:

PF is perfectly fine. You limp which is good. It gets raised, action will be 4-way with you closing it. Calling here is standard. Folding in either of your preflop spots would be a mistake.

--aj

[matrix]

just been reviewing this hand some more .....

and the reason I'm still not a fan of completing so much here is the stack sizes of UTG &amp; UTG+1.

if one of them had 100BB I'd agree that completing is goot. As it is I'm only really getting juicy implied odds from BB (who I was expecting to check) - once it's raised and everyone calls I have to call preflop but I'm not happy about it.

I still auto fold here if there's only 1 limper in front of me - tho I feel that sc's (and particularly 76s and 78s) are a must play hand with 2 limpers on soft tables where I can usually pwn people post flop. Perhaps I ought to start completing with 1 limper in front as well - meh.

This is one of the few hands I've played recently where I felt a bit lost as to what to do hence my posting it - and yeah I played the turn pretty badly here I think.

Oh and I think BB is 2p2 as well - and obv he tables AQ and I got up and left after this hand. (not cos I lost - but because I wasn't comfortable playing with some deep 2p2 guy on my left when I can go sit at other tables where everyones a donk)

a bit miffed that shorty had JTss and had me beat as well but hey [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ADK]

would it be wrong to re-raise on flop here?