2nd nuts facing aggression from donkey

[lacrymosa]

This may seem like a no brainer, but lately I have been calling with the second best hand. Perhaps I need some validation that these things happen. Having said this, don't assume I lost this hand.

a) given stacks, I'm assuming this is an easy call, yes?
b) how about if we are 200BB deep?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $17
UTG+1: $47.45
Hero: $25.60
Button: $26.30
SB: $57.55
BB: $25.20

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.35</font>, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($5.75, 4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($5.75, 4 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $1.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $19.25</font>, 2 folds, Hero ?

[Supwithbates]

meh, I don't think he's got a set, looks like you're splitting or behind. Probably it's something stupid enough times to justify calling for the split, but it's thin.

[melioris]

so you are putting him on exactly QT and folding this when any T plays it this way, any set plays it this way, and some wacky [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] FDs will do this as well?

Folding this is bad IMO. I call this every day of the week.

As for calling with the 2nd nuts, it is +EV in the long run in a micro-6max game. Yes, sometimes you run bad with the 2nd nuts, but that is called variance.

[Supwithbates]

[ QUOTE ]
so you are putting him on exactly QT and folding this when any T plays it this way, any set plays it this way, and some wacky [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] FDs will do this as well?

Folding this is bad IMO. I call this every day of the week.

As for calling with the 2nd nuts, it is +EV in the long run in a micro-6max game. Yes, sometimes you run bad with the 2nd nuts, but that is called variance.

[/ QUOTE ]
2nd nuts on this board is not 2nd nuts in general.
This guy doesn't have the set like this very often at all (on that board he'll be scared of the straight), probably not much more than he has QT. I'm not putting him on QT exactly but on this board you're calling a 3xpotsize bet basically expecting to split. At 25NL I call but I think it's a meh spot, I'm pretty sure that both calling and folding are -EV but calling is slightly closer to neutral.

[melioris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so you are putting him on exactly QT and folding this when any T plays it this way, any set plays it this way, and some wacky [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] FDs will do this as well?

Folding this is bad IMO. I call this every day of the week.

As for calling with the 2nd nuts, it is +EV in the long run in a micro-6max game. Yes, sometimes you run bad with the 2nd nuts, but that is called variance.

[/ QUOTE ]
2nd nuts on this board is not 2nd nuts in general.
This guy doesn't have the set like this very often at all (on that board he'll be scared of the straight), probably not much more than he has QT. I'm not putting him on QT exactly but on this board you're calling a 3xpotsize bet basically expecting to split. At 25NL I call but I think it's a meh spot, I'm pretty sure that both calling and folding are -EV but calling is slightly closer to neutral.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not saying that he has a set, I am just saying that it is in the range for a $25NL donkey, even though the line makes no sense for a set. I agree it is a meh spot, but you got to call here.

I am unsure of the flop action. Thoguhts? In 4-way pot I don't like to CB. But then again, a stab at the flop clarifies your actions later.

I like to think that my thinking in this hand would be something like this "I don't like CBs in 4-way pots, but since I have a gutshot to the 2nd nut straight, if my miracle hits I want to make sure that QT has folded. But then again, stabbing or CBing in a 4-way pot is crazy." Not sure what to do, but if you are going to felt it if your gutshot completes, I think it might swing the flop action from a check to a CB.