Mistakes per session (Psychology post) - Page 2

Thorv · #11 02-22-2007, 04:32 PM

Great posts. Definitely helpful to hear others' stories. Thanks all.

milesdyson · #12 02-22-2007, 07:01 PM

Here is a hand I played recently:

I was BB with 8c6c. Someone raised, someone else 3-bet, I called. Flop was KKT with one club. I check called on the flop.

Also this one:

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (10 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 6s Ks (flush, king high).
BB has 5d Ts (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 12 BB.

Heisenb3rg · #13 02-22-2007, 07:34 PM

ROFL dyson that makes me feel a bit better.

I just dropped ANOTHER 100BB since making this post lol.

Here's a couple of hands just today where my tricky and/or stupid play bit me in the butt.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9.4SB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5.7BB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (13.7BB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 15.7BB

Opponent shows KK

Another vs a 2+2er

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5SB, 5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8.5BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, CO folds.

Results:
Final pot: 13.5BB

Oppenent shows Q7s

I repeat, I hate poker.

milesdyson · #14 02-22-2007, 07:38 PM

Also I am SB in this hand. Hero is sweetjazz.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Button folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 13BB
SB showed 6d Jd
Hero showed Ks Ts

milesdyson · #15 02-22-2007, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9.4SB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5.7BB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (13.7BB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 15.7BB

Opponent shows KK

[/ QUOTE ]
Preflop and turn are dumb obviously, but the one thing that irks me most about this hand is that he bet the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Another vs a 2+2er

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5SB, 5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8.5BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, CO folds.

Results:
Final pot: 13.5BB

Oppenent shows Q7s

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah this is really bad. You need to take a break. I only ever do stuff like your flop play when I'm down about $5000 and piss drunk.

TheWunderkind · #16 02-22-2007, 07:51 PM

Hi nice thread

i have to think abou this a lot because it happens so often to me.

I had a hand today what discribes my problem perfectly.

i am the button with T8 o first in, i raise, the BB seems to ALWAYS call my steal raises, this was how it seemed to my. his stats spoke another speech but i thought he always calls me because he may know that i steal a lot so he doesnt want to fold and maybe c/r with air on the Flop or just outplay me psotflop. And the Flop came AQx and he checkraised , i made a dumb call because i thought he maybe will give up after I called you know, just stupid. The Turn was an A, perfect Card for me i thought if i raise this he will muck his 38o but he called now i realized that he had just a good hand to defend with but also bluffed the River because i thought he maybe had draw...he had KQ...so thats what happens often to me if i see one Guy always crossing my plans im trying to make stupid plays on him before i realized he just played his cards.

Another problem is if i had a lot bad beats in a row i start spewing with Hands where i should just call and maybe fold, i cap my KJ on an A KJ x 3 Flush Board and thinks like that.

Sometimes i make also those stupid calldowns with AQ or whatever like you discribed, your threads reminds me now to take a look and these things and that it costs me hard grinded money in the in the long run.

I had a 600BB Downswing last month and i know a lot was bad play because it was my first month playing 6max. I realized now the mistake was to sit back and telling myself " just be patient, when things turn around youre the guy who flop a set every hand hits his flushes etc " i just telled myself i was just unlucky and God knows i really was but there was a lot of Bad play, tilt, and just a lack of theoretical and practical knowlegde about 6max that made the DS so huuuge, i maybe would only lost the half in terms of $ if i dropped down, read all the threads that are available, posting hands etc but instead i kept playing and was hoping that things will change just from alone. I really thought i could beat this games by watching some stoxvideos and reading 3 HH posts but to really beat the game you have to alot of work before youre really beating the games if youre not as talantet as stox .

sweetjazz · #17 02-22-2007, 08:01 PM

H-berg,

I think the key is recognizing the difference between small and big mistakes, realizing just how little less you could have lost during your downswing, and also understanding how important it is nevertheless not to lose those extra bets because in the long run you will make up all the bad luck, but you never make up the bets from bad decisions.

Looking at the two recent hands you posted:

The 65s hand is exactly the kind of trouble spot that I also tend to get in when I am running bad. For me, I think it is because I am trying to make the long run "happen faster" by playing marginal hands. Unfortunately, running bad is usually the worst time to add these hands as your raises get a little less respect and more importantly your decision making tends to be more impaired than usual. However, the 3bet with 65s is not a huge mistake unless you had a read that CO overplays in those spots, won't release 77 on a KJT flop, calls down with A9 on scary boards, etc. The big mistake is capping the turn. You have been running so bad you are thrilled to finally make a good hand -- two pair -- and you can find hands that villain could plausibly have (AA/AK) that you beat, so you instinctively raise. But I imagine the 5/10 game is still passive enough that bottom two is not in good enough shape to cap this turn here. Having 5 bets go in on the big streets with your hand is bad news. Keep in perspective that 4 bets should go in, so you lost a lot of money because of several parlays:
(1) your loose steal with 65s ran into a big hand
(2) your loose flop peel connected on the turn
(3) your opponent had one of the two hands that crush you
(4) you overplayed your hand on the turn
The EV of your decisions in this hand, while negative, were nowhere near as bad as the final result.

In the second hand, your flop raise is probably hopelessly optomistic, especially if the button is a 2+2er. After that, the hand plays itself. You made one decision that was bad, but could have worked out for you. It looks like you hit the worst of all possibilities in that your opponent was on the flush draw which hit and you ended up making your straight.

The sick thing with poker is that a lot of times a play (such as your flop check/raise with 54) would be profitable or neutral EV if every time you hit your straight your hand held up. And most of the time you won't hit your hand, and most of the time you do hit it will stand up. So you can go a long time making this play and having it work out. And you can run awful and lose a bunch when these rare events occur at an unusually high frequency.

Take a break from poker and internalize that you would have lost a lot of money even if you had played perfect. Then come to terms that you have leaks (like all of us do) and that those leaks cost you small amounts of money *every session you play* that add up, and resolve to improve your game in some way. Maybe it's counting to three before making each postflop decision. Maybe it's getting up quicker when you feel frustrated. Maybe it's playing shorter sessions or less tables for a while to get your "A" game back. Maybe it's analyzing your button restealing strategy and trying to fine-tune it.

Hang in there. Poker's nowhere near as good as it feels when you're running great and nowhere near as bad as it feels when you're running awful.

Heisenb3rg · #18 02-22-2007, 08:16 PM

I remmeber a post long ago where you (myles)pulled a similar bluff off on a 2+2er succesfully :P

Edit: Sweetjazz awsome post man, thanks.

Here's one of the numerous sick sick bad beats that have happened this session. Opponent is a maniac. Probabily lowering the quality of this thread a bit, but I want to vent [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, Hero caps, UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (14.4SB, 3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8.7BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (11.7BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Results:
Final pot: 16.7BB
Hero mucks Kh Kc

Oppenent showed T9 for a runner runner gutshot straight

Guruman · #19 02-22-2007, 08:19 PM

I tilt when I pop open the browser

I tilt when I listen to rock or blues (cause I love rock and blues)

I tilt when I chat too much

I tilt when I lose consecutive big pots on the river

I tilt when I do stupid [censored]

I tilt when my wife is talking

I tilt when my wife is naked (waaaaay diff tilt)

I tilt if there's a tv on

I tilt if I'm low on chips

I tilt if I'm near a movedown threshold

[/ QUOTE ]

I play well to ambient and trance

I play well in silence, but not for more than an hour

I play well when headsup

I play well when threehanded

I play well when taking notes on people

I play well after having watched others play well

I play well when I'm running hot

I play well when I haven't played in 1-3 days (I play badly if the break is longer than that)

I play well when I'm well fed

I play well when I'm well rested

I play well if I've already had sex that day

[/ QUOTE ]

almost all of my poker wins are a result of me playing well
almost all of my poker losses are a result of me tilting

tilting is easier than playing well

losing is just like winning, only there's more of it.

MacGuyV · #20 02-22-2007, 08:20 PM

I had a 450 downer that lasted ~35k hands when I first moved to 5/10. This was a year ago when the games were better. Some was no doubt tilt, but I couldn't figure out why I'd always win every time I decided to blow off steam @ 3/6 (the two levels were basically the same at the time). The biggest problem was just getting outflopped - it wasn't so much the river suckouts (though there were more than enough) as it was villian flopping TP+ every single hand. Also Lagtards who defended their BB 95% folding when I finally picked up AA, stuff like that drove me insane...
Anyway, I found that venting on this forum helped as much as anything.
You seem to donk more flops than 2+2 avg, but I'm sure yur a winning player. As Miles said you should thank that guy who didn't C/R top set on the river.