harrington question - T3o, middle position, M=3.3

[Marnixvdb]

there was a little discussion in HSNL on a Harrington based question in the donkeytest.

your stack 1000, rest plays 5000, blinds 100/200 - you get dealt T3o in middle position (no specifics on which seat exactly). Push or fold?

And what stack range do you push here with T3o?

Assume there are five players on your left.

- Marnix

[Pondy]

Difficult one. If you wait, blinds comin up are gonna make your stack so short that no matter what you play someone will call. 10 3 is definately not 10 6.

sorry for the non answer!

[Soulman]

Fold. Way too many people behind you here. I don't push with T3o no matter what my stack is here, unless the table is ultratight. I'll happily push 72o from the button though, and superwide from CO as well.

[omaha]

I like soulmans answer better. I assume the 'correct'answer according to HOH is to shove with only 5bbs.

HOH says that on one hand, when you shove in sb or button or co (assuming all fold to you), you only have a couple of hands to beat, which will hopefully fold.

On the other hand, if you are utg, you have to go through 8 hands, which is a hellofalotharder! However, this is balanced by the fact that the blinds are going through you after this hand. Assuming we get dealt the usual crud and someone raises us, in two hands, we will have 700 chips, or 3.5 bb on the button. This is a terrible stack size, as any limper will have odds to call our shove, and we have very little fe.

Im still much happier shoving xx from button, but I would shove the 10 3 and pray for folds.

Obviously we need to also consider other stack sizes as well, but lets ignore that aspect for now!

[Soulman]

Oh btw, there was a loooong thread on this subject a while back, where raptor came in and mocked everyone who said you should push in situations like this (well, kinda anyway). LearnedFromTV wrote some brilliant posts in it. Wish I remembered the name :/

Basically (and I hope I'm not paraphrasing too much here), raptor's point was that even though the situation says a push is marginally (as in, very marginally) +cEV, chances are you'll get a more +cEV situation by folding. Things took off from there. Very interesting discussion.

[Marnixvdb]

soulman, these are my thoughts as well

I'd be very interested to read that thread, anybody has a link for me?

thanks,

- Marnix

[Augie]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh btw, there was a loooong thread on this subject a while back, where raptor came in and mocked everyone who said you should push in situations like this (well, kinda anyway). LearnedFromTV wrote some brilliant posts in it. Wish I remembered the name :/

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

Be good,

Augie

[Bakes]

i'm in the raptor camp

[Augie]

Bakes,

Me too.

I was one who questioned raptor in the linked thread above.

However, I've since come to realize that HOH (specifically his ideas of when to push with certain Ms), although a good starting point on how to think about these spots, is not the definitive answer to MTT problems such as these.

Especially in online donkaments, where calling ranges are usually fairly wide. Also, the structure (at least at Stars) is often highly escalating, but with low antes, which will lead to avg. Ms under 10 around the bubble.

And the low ante structure can lead to miscalculations on when to push, if you go solely on M. You can have an M of 4, but still have 8 BBs, and not be in immediate danger of of having your stack eaten away.

In structures with more ante emphasis, you can have 8 BBs, and only an M of 3, but be in real danger of being chipped away by the antes.

And finally, with most players already having fairly wide calling ranges, even if you win with your junk (and in reality have only gained a theoretical fraction of a BB in EV), having shown down that hand greatly affects how you will be called in the future.

Obviously, with any low M, or BB, situation, you can't play terribly tight, but I think total junk hands are easy folds.

Be good,

Augie

[Bond18]

This is a mega clear fold online.