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#1
02-19-2007, 09:06 PM
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starting hand point system
i was super bored in class today and decided to devise my own starting hand point system. it's a bit cumbersome and would be hard to actually implement at the table, but i wanted it to give a good idea of what to look for in a hand to complete beginners. so i'd like ya'll's advice on what needs to be changed in this system. what i've overvalued/undervalued.
3 pts - big pair (J-A) 2 pts - medium pair (7-10) 1 pt - small pair (2-6) (+1 additional point for every card that is connected in rank to your pair) 5 pts - two wheel cards (+4 for A2, +3 for A3, +1 for 23) 7 pts - three wheel cards (+4 for A23, +3 for A2X, +2 for A3X) 8 pts - four wheel cards (+4 for A23X, +3 for A245, +2 for A345) 3 pts - 2 broadway cards 5 pts - 3 broadway cards 6 pts - 4 broadway cards (note: for wheel and broadway cards, don't count pairs twice.) 5 pts - suited ace 3 pts - suited king 1 pt - suited jack or queen (for two suited high cards, count the highest one [AKs=5pts]) 1 pt small-medium suited connectors (2-9) 1 pt unsuited medium connectors (6-10) yeah i just realized how overly complicated that is. especialy the wheel cards part. i just tried to make it grade the strength of your hand very fairly. heres a list of possible wheel card combos you could have in your hand and the amount of points you would get so you can see the logical progression i tried to create: 5 pts - two ugly wheel cards 6 pts - 23 7 pts - three ugly wheel cards 8 pts - A3, 2345 9 pts - A2, A3X 10 pts - A2X, A345 11 pts - A23, A245 12 pts - A23X I'm curious if you O8 experts out there would rather play A234ds or A210Jds. with my system as it is now, A234ds is worth 18 pts, while A210Jds is worth 20 pts. AA23ds is worth 26 
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#2
02-19-2007, 11:15 PM
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Re: starting hand point system
Not a great fan of point systems. Still, if you want to make one:
- the points for pairs aren't right. AA and KK have significant value (but AA is much better than KK), QQ/JJ are situationally playable but much worse, while TT/99 are really not very good. 77/88 are only good as part of a low hand, but there they aren't bad (A2/A3 + 77/88 is definitely playable esp. if suited). - 6 is a better card than 7/8/9. While not as good as a wheel card, it adds significantly to the value of other wheel cards you have. E.g. I would rather hold A236 single-suited to the ace than A23Qss. Need to account for sixes. Useless without wheel cards though. - putting just one point between A23 (11 pts) and A345 (10 pts) seems wrong. A345 is a nice hand, but A23 is much stronger. I'm not an O8 expert, but I would rather have A2TJds than A234ds. A234 is almost overkill on the low side, your chances of making a nut low are nearly as good with just A23. A2TJ does better against AAxx hands too as I recall (though not by a big margin).
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#3
02-20-2007, 02:25 AM
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Re: starting hand point system
[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious if you O8 experts out there would rather play A234ds or A210Jds. [/ QUOTE ] myxomatosized - I don't know as I'm an "expert" - but A234ds is a much better starting hand than A2TJds and it's not even close. They're both playable from any position, which is all that really matters. Buzz
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#6
02-20-2007, 10:31 AM
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Re: starting hand point system
[ QUOTE ]
I've only played O8 for a couple of months but I'd definately go for the LO. Is A2sA3s the best starting hand? [/ QUOTE ] yeah, only play hands that win from now on.
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#7
02-20-2007, 12:25 PM
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Re: starting hand point system
but A234ds is a much better starting hand than A2TJds and it's not even close
Can you explain why this is? If you run the preflop equity numbers A2TJ looks slightly better to me (it's 53/47 vs A234 for example). Does A234 have better prospects for quartering someone else with a low hand? Is the counterfeit protection that important?
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#8
02-20-2007, 05:28 PM
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Re: starting hand point system
[ QUOTE ]
Is A2sA3s the best starting hand? [/ QUOTE ]Nina - Yes. Except as a point of interest, I’m not sure it matters exactly which hand is the best because all we see when we’re playing in a game is our own cards (and the board). But of course we do want to be generally playing the starting hands that have the best chance of winning while generally avoiding those that do not have a good chance of winning. There are 16432 distinctly different four card starting hands, too many to conveniently list. And they don’t all have the same number of duplications. For example, A23K-rainbow can be dealt 24 different ways, while A23K with all the cards the same suit can only be dealt 4 ways. And there are fifteen distinctly different ways to choose A23K. Here they all are, I think. As2s3tKt.....d As2t3sKt.....d As2t3tKs.....d As2s3sKs.....s”” As2s3sKn.....s”’ As2s3nKs.....s”’ As2n3sKs.....s”’ An2s3sKs.....s-”’ As2s3mKn.....s As2m3sKn.....s As2m3nKs.....s* Am2s3sKn.....s= Am2s3nKs.....s- Am2n3sKs.....s- Am2n3pKq.....n In terms of playability, the fifteen distinctly different ways amount to about nine different ways, if you’re willing to disregard straight flush possibilities. Bill Boston wrote a book in which he listed three of the fifteen A23K hand types. He calls As2s3tKt.....A23Kd As2s3mKn.....A23Ks, and Am2n3pKq.....A23Kn. But of course A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], k[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], although having a suited ace, does not play as well as A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], k[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], which also has a suited ace. And A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], k[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] does not do nearly as well as a hand with the ace suited to the deuce or the ace suited to the trey. Flushes are important in this game, and there are all those different possibilities which affect the probabilities and corresponding odds. The following list is very incomplete, but shows the top 366 hands in my nine handed non-folding sims file. One hand for every day in a leap year. The pot equity percentages given are only approximate. In other words, if I simulated any of these again, I’d expect a slightly different percentage pot equity. Most of these values are for 10000 run simulations, but some are for more runs. AA23d..........32.06% AA24d..........30.48% AA23s..........29.29% AA34d..........29.03% AA25d..........28.64% AA22d..........28.11% AA23s”’........27.92% A234d..........27.87% A23Kd..........27.82% AA24s..........27.55% AA35d..........27.25% A23Qd..........27.24% AA33d..........27.05% A23Jd..........26.90% A235d..........26.82% A234s..........26.81% AA2Kd..........26.73% AA26d..........26.71% AA24s”’........26.69% A234s”’........26.61% AA23s-........26.51% AA2Jd..........26.41% AA2Qd..........26.37% AA2Td..........26.33% A23Td..........26.29% AA23n..........26.24% AA34s..........26.20% AA25s..........26.16% A223d..........26.04% A23Kd-.........25.97% A235s..........25.96% A24Kd..........25.95% A234s””........25.87% AA22s..........25.70% A23Qs..........25.69% A239d..........25.68% A23Ts..........25.63% AA27d..........25.60% AA36d..........25.54% A23Ks..........25.53% A233d..........25.47% AA3Qd..........25.31% A223s..........25.30% A233s..........25.29% AA3Jd..........25.27% AA29d..........25.20% A23Ks-........25.20% A23Ks”’........25.20% AA45d..........25.07% A236d..........25.05% A2KKd..........25.00% A23Js..........24.91% AA3Td..........24.85% AA44d..........24.84% AA25s”’........24.83% AA28d..........24.78% AA3Kd..........24.76% AA24s-.........24.74% A23Ks-”’........24.64% A239s..........24.56% AA35s..........24.40% A234s-..........24.33% A236s..........24.17% A234s-”’........24.17% AA46d..........24.15% A2QQd..........24.12% AA33s..........24.11% AA2Ts..........24.10% AA2Qs..........24.08% AA37d..........24.06% AA2Js..........24.02% AA2Ks..........24.01% A23Js-.........23.99% A234n..........23.96% A238d..........23.90% A224s..........23.89% AA39d..........23.82% AA24n..........23.80% A23Ks””........23.79% A237d..........23.67% A2KKs..........23.61% AA26s..........23.59% A235s-.........23.55% A237s..........23.43% A23Ks=.........23.39% AA4Kd..........2325% A24Js..........23.19% A3KKd..........23.18% A23Js=.........23.18% AA25s-.........23.09% AA34s-.........23.08% AA38d..........22.96% AA25n..........22.91% AA34n..........22.90% AA45s..........22.89% A23Kn..........22.80% AA36s..........22.70% AA3Ts..........22.66% AA29s..........22.57% A345s..........22.50% A238s..........22.43% A23Qn..........22.43% AA22n..........22.37% A235n..........22.35% A23Jn..........22.34% AA3Ks..........22.28% A2TJd..........22.26% A3QQd..........22.24% AA3Qs..........22.23% A23Tn..........22.13% AA27s..........22.04% AA3Js..........22.02% A2TQd..........2.201% A223n..........21.97% A35Kd..........21.96% AA55d..........21.86% AA44s..........21.78% A233n..........21.77% AA45s”’........21.58% A34Ts=........21.58% AA28s..........21.51% AA35s-.........21.34% A247d=........21.24% A2TJs..........21.22% A245n..........21.16% A224n..........21.15% AA39s..........21.08% A29Jd..........21.08% AA35n..........21.00% A255d..........20.98% A24Kn..........20.83% AA38s..........20.81% A3KKs..........20.78% AA37s..........20.71% A239n..........20.69% A29Qd..........20.69% AA4Ks..........20.67% AA2Kn..........20.66% AA46s..........20.66% AA33n..........20.64% A22Ks..........20.64% AA2Jn..........20.61% AA2Qn..........20.55% A4KKd..........20.48% A236n..........20.47% AA26n..........20.46% A248s”’........20.46% A24Qn..........20.38% A35Kd-..........20.36% A2TTs..........20.30% AA2Tn..........20.26% A24Jn..........20.25% A34Js”’........20.19% A45Kd..........20.15% A2KKn..........20.11% A349s..........20.09% AA4Ts..........20.08% A24Tn..........20.03% A3QQs..........20.01% A22Qs..........19.95% A244n..........19.95% A35Ks..........19.93% AA66d..........19.84% AAKKd..........19.80% A4QQd..........19.80% A237n..........19.75% AA45s-.........19.74% A28Qd..........19.70% A45Qd..........19.63% A2QQn..........19.58% 23KKd..........19.58% AA29n..........19.48% AA3Kn..........19.44% A5KKd..........19.44% AA55s..........19.40% AA3Jn..........19.39% A35Ks”’........19.34% A4TKd..........19.30% A225n..........19.26% AA3Tn..........19.24% A4KKs..........19.22% AAQQd.........19.21% QQKKd..........19.21% AA45n..........19.20% AAJJd..........19.20% A35Ks-.........19.20% AA27n..........19.19% A238n..........19.18% A345n..........19.13% A29Ks..........19.09% A348s..........19.08% A356d..........19.06% A45Td..........19.02% AA36n..........19.00% A356s..........18.99% A246n..........18.95% A249n..........18.90% A4QKd..........18.90% AA3Qn..........18.88% A4JJd..........18.85% A229s..........18.80% A25Kn..........18.77% A35Ks””........18.74% A44Kd..........18.72% A45Jd..........18.72% A34Kn..........18.69% A222s..........18.67% JJKKd..........18.66% A25Qn..........18.63% A2TTs-..........18.58% JJQQd..........18.58% A25Jn..........18.57% AA57s..........18.56% A4QQs..........18.54% A2JJn..........18.52% A46Kd..........18.52% A4TJd..........18.52% A4TQd..........18.52% A35Ts-..........18.50% A228d..........18.45% A279d..........18.44% AA28n..........18.39% A27Ks..........18.38% A227s”’........18.37% TTKKd..........18.36% A28Jd=........18.35% A4JKd..........18.33% A35Ks-”’........18.30% A3KKn..........18.27% AA44n..........18.24% A4JQd..........18.23% AATTd..........18.19% A456d..........18.17% A25Tn..........18.14% A34Jn..........18.14% A45Qs..........18.14% A34Qn..........18.12% A45Ks..........18.11% A34Tn..........18.08% A4TTd..........18.06% AA68d..........18.02% A445d..........17.99% AA6Kd..........17.98% A39Jd=........17.98% 2345d..........17.92% A247n..........17.91% A2TJn..........17.91% A455d..........17.90% A4JJs..........17.88% A2TQn..........17.86% A248n..........17.85% A2QKn..........17.85% A2JKn..........17.83% A44Qd..........17.81% AA37n..........17.80% A35Ks=........17.80% 2344d..........17.77% AA46n..........17.75% A334n..........17.73% 24KKd..........17.72% A5KKs..........17.71% A455s..........17.70% 234Kd..........17.70% A5QQd..........17.67% 2345s..........17.67% A2JQn..........17.66% A22Qn..........17.65% A3QQn..........17.62% A46Td..........17.61% A344n..........17.60% A457d..........17.58% 234Qd..........17.57% AA39n..........17.55% A36Qs..........17.55% A346n..........17.54% A45Js..........17.49% AAKKs..........17.47% A47Kd..........17.47% A2TTn..........17.44% 23KKs..........17.41% TTQQd..........17.41% A45Ts..........17.40% A49Kd..........17.38% A255n..........17.37% A44Jd..........17.37% 34KKd..........17.37% A22Kn..........17.36% A259n..........17.36% A279s..........17.36% A349n..........17.36% A39Ts..........17.36% A46Qd..........17.35% A5QKd..........17.35% 23QQd..........17.33% AA4Tn..........17.32% A256n..........17.29% 2345s””........17.29% A5JKd..........17.28% A6KKd..........17.26% A45Ks”’........17.23% A2TKn..........17.21% A459d..........17.17% A456s..........17.16% A22Jn..........17.15% A258s-.........17.12% 234Ks..........17.12% A26Kn..........17.09% 235Kd..........17.08% AA38n..........17.07% AA77d..........17.07% A226n..........17.07% A379d..........17.06% AA4Qn..........17.04% ATKKd..........17.04% A458d..........17.03% AQKKd..........17.00% A35Jn..........16.99% A4TTs..........16.98% A257n..........16.96% A45Ks-.........16.96% AATJd..........16.93% 23KKs”’........16.92% A47Qd..........16.91% A4KKn..........16.91% A339s..........16.90% A56Kd..........16.89% A35Qn..........16.88% JJKKs..........16.88% A348s-.........16.87% A368d..........16.87% A4QKs..........16.87% 234Ks”’.........16.87% A45Ks-”’........16.85% A46Jd..........16.84% A4TQs..........16.84% A5JJd..........16.84% A5JQd..........16.84% A457s..........16.81% A22Tn..........16.80% A4JQs..........16.79% 234Qs..........16.78% A49Jd..........16.77% 2344s..........16.77% AA4Kn..........16.76% AATQd..........16.75% AATKd..........16.75% A49Qd..........16.75% AAJKd..........16.74% AJKKd..........16.74% QQKKs..........16.74% TTJJd..........16.73% A348s=........16.71% A48Kd..........16.71% A4TJs..........16.71% AA66s..........16.70% 2345n..........16.70% AAQQs..........16.68% A258n..........16.67% A49Td..........16.67% JJQQs..........16.67% A366s..........16.66% A445s..........16.66% 2346d..........16.63% 99KKd..........1663% AAQKd..........16.60% A35Kn..........16.60% Buzz
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#9
02-20-2007, 05:32 PM
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Re: starting hand point system
Bart - I should have qualified what I wrote.
I was thinking of a full game, not a one-on-one contest. I’d rather have A234d than A2TJd in a full game (nine or ten players). I haven’t even thought about the two hands relatively in a one-on-one context. And I should not have written “and it’s not even close.” In a ten handed game, A234d is better than A2TJ but..... well..... you be the judge. As simulated: A234d has 26.62% pot equity against nine random hands. A2TJd has 21.15% pot equity against nine random hands. You’ve got me curious about one-on-one play. As simulated: A234d has 57.82% pot equity against nine random hands. A2TJd has 60.37% pot equity against nine random hands. Hmm. That’s interesting. A234d is the better hand in a full game, but A2TJd is the better hand in a heads-up contest. I wouldn’t normally simulate the two hands against each other, but I’m curious about that too. A2TJd....53.12% vs. A234d....46.88% Let’s run that for a ten handed contest too, with the other eight hands being random. The ace-deuce in each hand will cut into each other to some extent. I wonder how much. A234d....23.88% vs. A2TJd....18.61% vs. eight random hands WXYZ....about 7.19% each. I find it interesting that A234d and A2TJd both drop a bit when they’re in a ten handed contest, but neither is decimated by the presence of the other. Well.... when you think about it, each hand has six two-card combinations. Only one of the six (the ace-deuce) is duplicated. At any rate, I wrote the previous post in haste and off the top of my head last night. Sorry to be misleading. I hope this post squares it. As I did write in that post, A234d and A2TJd are both fine starting hands, playable from any position. Buzz
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#10
02-20-2007, 06:30 PM
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Re: starting hand point system
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a comprehensive way of determining this? [/ QUOTE ]Aniki - I'm not sure what you mean by "this." Do you mean how would one know AA23ds is the best possible starting hand? Do you mean how would one know AA23ds is a better starting hand than, for example, AAKKds or A23Kds or A234ds? You can either keep track of how well you do with every hand you are dealt in 10,000 deals (which seems best to me) or you can simulate. When you simulate, you choose the cards for one seat, and then the computer deals out cards to all the other seats and keeps track of who wins. You can have the computer deal out ten hands 10,000 times. It takes less than a minute on a high speed computer and the computer tabulates the results for you. I remember, when I first started playing, wondering what would be likely to win. I had never heard of computer simulations at that time. I remember sitting down at the dining room table, dealing out nine four-card hands 1000 times and keeping track of what hands won and which cards in the winning hand were responsible for the win. Took me a whole weekend and it wasn't the same as a game. But it gave me an idea of what was good, what I wanted to end up with at the showdown. It would clearly be better to keep track of how various hands and card combinations did under battle conditions. If you do that (or if you simulate) I think you'll find that AA23ds is indeed the best Omaha-8 starting hand. Buzz
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