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#131
02-20-2007, 02:50 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
BCPVP, you have a link to one of those threads right before you converted? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The force is strong with this one. Read two Mises articles and call me in the morning. [/ QUOTE ] Hehe, see it wasn't like I woke up one morning and said, "Well, I'm an ACist now." It was kind of a shift that took place over the discussions I had with you guys. I just got to the point where any downside I could think up for AC applied just as much to the state. edit: by the way, if anyone knows of a place online where I can read John McGee's article on Predatory Pricing for free, I'd greatly appreciate it. Google only seems to bring up people citing it; but not the actual article. 
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#132
02-20-2007, 02:53 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] BCPVP, you have a link to one of those threads right before you converted? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The force is strong with this one. Read two Mises articles and call me in the morning. [/ QUOTE ] Hehe, see it wasn't like I woke up one morning and said, "Well, I'm an ACist now." It was kind of a shift that took place over the discussions I had with you guys. I just got to the point where any downside I could think up for AC applied just as much to the state. [/ QUOTE ] QFT, this is exactly what it was like for me.
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#133
02-20-2007, 02:53 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ready to join the Dark Side yet? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Someone cue that pick of ACists in the dark that either bills or ojc has posted... [/ QUOTE ]  All will be assimilated. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] lol, nice.
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#134
02-20-2007, 02:59 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm in favor of a "government" for the purpose of protecting our freedom. [/ QUOTE ] I don't want to antagonize you, but I truly do not see how restricting freedom is supposed to protect it. If that's protection, I'd rather be "unprotected." [/ QUOTE ] I'm not in favor of any "government" restricting freedom. My idea of an ideal government would be an institution that was chartered for the purpose of protecting our freedom, and is not authorized to "initiate" the use of force. Just because governments have historically restricted freedom doesn't mean that theoretically a non-oppressive government could not exist. But, for all practical purposes, any political move in the AC direction would be a move in the libertarian direction.
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#135
02-20-2007, 03:05 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
The biggest stumbling block, bar none, for me was getting over the idea of needing a state. [/ QUOTE ] It's really not an easy thing to get over, considering that it's been ingrained into you since birth (well, unless you're pvn's kids [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). Note that most people never even try to justify it (at least not logically); it's just accepted as a given. My parents are yellow-dog Democrats. Growing up, it was just accepted as a given that Republicans were evil people. That was it. In all the years I lived at home with my mom and dad, they never tried to explain to me why being a Democrat was philosophically superior to being a Republican. Not even once. (Of course this would have been hard for them to do even if they tried since the two are nearly identical but I digress.) And they are highly educated people. Things are pretty much the same with regard to the state. The possibility of a society without a government is not a viewpoint you will be exposed to in school, especially public ones, for obvious reasons. Growing up I thought anarchists were people who for whatever reason favored rampant, unprovoked violence and chaos. Seemed like an odd preference to me, but different strokes for different folks I guess! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Ironically, it is the statists who favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety. Which is worse than even the strawman-chaotic kind, since the gov't can do whatever it wants AND make everyone else fund it.
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#136
02-20-2007, 03:19 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
by the way, if anyone knows of a place online where I can read John McGee's article on Predatory Pricing for free, I'd greatly appreciate it. Google only seems to bring up people citing it; but not the actual article. [/ QUOTE ] I found the actual article here but it costs $14. You can access JSTOR for free at many libraries, including a bunch in Wisconsin.
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#137
02-20-2007, 03:26 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
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Ironically, it is the statists who favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety. [/ QUOTE ] Huh? I want to limit government power to only those powers that ACists believe private institutions should freely exercise. Do I therefore "favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety"?
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#138
02-20-2007, 03:35 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ironically, it is the statists who favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety. [/ QUOTE ] Huh? I want to limit government power to only those powers that ACists believe private institutions should freely exercise. Do I therefore "favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety"? [/ QUOTE ] Technically, if government exists at all, it is to do things that people wouldn't do voluntarily. If they would do them voluntarily, then government wouldn't be necessary. The only way you can get people to do things they wouldn't do by choice is to force them. All you are advocating (I think) is forcing people not use force against each other. That is still using force, and it is of the centrally planned variety (you're preventing the general use of force, but doing it with centrally planned force). (So the argument goes)
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#139
02-20-2007, 03:48 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ironically, it is the statists who favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety. [/ QUOTE ] Huh? I want to limit government power to only those powers that ACists believe private institutions should freely exercise. Do I therefore "favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety"? [/ QUOTE ] Well how does it fund its operations? If it's by voluntary contributions or contract then I don't think many here would call you a statist at all. If it's by taxation then there's your "centrally planned force".
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#140
02-20-2007, 03:56 AM
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Re: Statism, AC, and Corporatism- The End Result is the Same
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ironically, it is the statists who favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety. [/ QUOTE ] Huh? I want to limit government power to only those powers that ACists believe private institutions should freely exercise. Do I therefore "favor violence, of the centrally-planned variety"? [/ QUOTE ] Technically, if government exists at all, it is to do things that people wouldn't do voluntarily. If they would do them voluntarily, then government wouldn't be necessary. The only way you can get people to do things they wouldn't do by choice is to force them. All you are advocating (I think) is forcing people not use force against each other. That is still using force, and it is of the centrally planned variety (you're preventing the general use of force, but doing it with centrally planned force). [/ QUOTE ] Sure, but ACists also favor this kind of force being used. They're against the initiation of force, and so are a lot of people they call statists, like me.
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