Gay Shower Question

[andyfox]

Is that your definition of homosexuality, sticking one's penis wherever it fits for the fun of it?

Is masturbation unnatural?

[ratel]

Actually, the appropriate analogue is "women who prefer not to shower with lesbians".

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think it's ok to stick in a penis wherever it fits just for the fun of it, try a document shredder.

[/ QUOTE ]Where did that come from? Do you know of any animal sticking its penis "wherever it fits"??

OK, I know my neighbor does that, but he's a an animal!..

(Seriously, we males mostly prefer to stick our penis to wherever it can give us the pleasure we desire. A shredder would be a real downer. It'd have made more sense if you had said "giraffe".)

Mickey Brausch

[ArturiusX]

Uhhhhh, isn't mutual attraction the whole point? Isn't that really fricken obvious?

[ALawPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
In all fairness, it should be pointed out that this use of the word "homosexuality" as it applies to animals refers to homosexual acts, not an orientation, like the word is normally used to describe humans today. A lot of animals engage in homosexual behavior, but these same animals still have the urge to mate with members of the opposite sex to procreate.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you're saying the urge is natural, but using our reasoning capacity to form a decision around those urges is not? By those standards, most things a human being does is not "natural." In fact, by your same standards, a human being who decides he is heterosexual and will engage exclusively in heterosexual acts is also acting unnaturally (since other animals will engage in homosexual acts if they want to, but he has decided on his lifestyle).

Human beings have a high capacity to reason and plan. We can see a cause and effect between our actions and future implications. Using this tool of ours is 100% natural. It's all we got. It's our greatest instinct. If we have certain urges, we have a high capacity to consciously recognize them and find a way to satisfy them in a way that will make us happy.

If I know I love pepperoni pizza, but the doctor told me my heart was in terrible shape, I have the ability to avoid eating the pepperoni pizza because I know it will probably do more damage than it's worth to me.

[ QUOTE ]
The desire to completely reject procreation is "unnatural"

[/ QUOTE ]

Do gays really "completely reject procreation"? Or do they just reason that as much as they might like to raise a child, having a sexual relationship that they did not desire would make them less happy in the long-term? When straight people decide they don't want kids, is this decision "unnatural"? Plus, you've never heard of a gay couple finding a female host? Or a gay man donating to a sperm bank?

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
If a man should be criticized for publicly proclaiming that he doesn't want to take a shower with a gay man, than why is it OK for a woman not to want to take a shower with a male co worker?

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason that male/female shower segregation is acceptable is that, whatever the motivation, almost everyone prefers the segregation. Tell a woman who's just joined a gym that the rules forbid her from showering with men and vice versa, and her response will be, "Thank God for that!"

On the other hand, tell a gay guy that he's not welcome in the men's shower, and he'll complain that it's absurd, discriminatory, ignorant, etc. -- and a lot of straight guys would agree with him. (Then he'll sue you and win, by the way.)


As for your specific question -- why shouldn't someone publicly proclaim that he doesn't want to take a shower with gay men -- the answer is simple: because it's rude. If he doesn't want to shower with gay guys, then all he has to do is avoid communal showers. Making a statement out of it is needlessly hurtful and inflammatory, and is particularly odious since the statement is in defense of what is, at best, an irrational pecadillo.

Regarding the specific statement by Tim Hardaway, he deserves all the scorn that's coming to him. It's absolutely on par with saying "I hate Orientals" -- worse, even, since what he said is likely to have real negative consequences. If he made some racist comment, he'd be universally recognized as a douche, and that would be all. As it is, he's contributing to the hostile intimidation of gays within a particularly homophobic community. It's already hard enough for gay athletes to come out without a relatively high-profile figure saying flat-out that he hates them and they're not welcome on his team. And it doesn't just affect the NBA or other pro sports -- his message will trickle all the way down to college and high school sports, too, where it's a much bigger problem (if only because of the number of athletes involved).

I know it's a cliché to say that so-and-so set back the movement towards acceptance X number of years, but Tim Hardaway really did undo some amount of the progress that has been made over the past few decades. He's not just a douche, he's a harmful douche.


Note: Most of this is cross-posted from a thread in the Sporting Events forum.

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
who in this thread would honestly shower with a gay guy?

cause i for one would never ever ever do it. even if there was a small chance a guy was gay i aint showering with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever beloged to a gym with communal showers? Did you shower with the rest of the class after H.S. phys ed? Ever routinely been a part of any communal shower? If the answer to any of these questions is 'yes', then I personally guarantee that you regularly shower (or have showered) with gay men. Are you retroactively appalled? Why or why not?

Incidentally, I find it amusing that your poll is running about 50/50, even though you apparently can't imagine that anyone would be willing to shower with a gay guy.

[Nick B.]

"
On the other hand, tell a gay guy that he's not welcome in the men's shower, and he'll complain that it's absurd, discriminatory, ignorant, etc. -- and a lot of straight guys would agree with him. (Then he'll sue you and win, by the way.)
"

Do you have any basis for this, or are you just spouting [censored] out of your ass.

[VarlosZ]

For which part? If you mean the hypothetical gay guy's reaction, I take it as too obvious to be debated, allowing for differences in degree and personality.

If you mean the part of about the lawsuit, then I believe my statement is accurate in some states but not others. I'd be willing to dig up a cite if you insist, so long as you're willing to admit to being wrong if and when I prove my point.

[PantsOnFire]

This is mainly aimed at some particular posters.

When you shower in a communal area with the guys, do you go in, do your business and get out, or do you help out the other guys with hard to reach places? Would you shower with a fat, ugly woman? Do you think you are attactive to gay men? Would you put sunscreen on your buddy's back if he was straight but not if he was gay?

As for Mr. Sklansky, no I wouldn't publicly criticize someone who didn't want to take a shower with a gay man. I would just make a social note for future reference much like the way I make poker notes.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future there will no longer be man/woman showers or toilets. Seems kind of silly when you think about it.