Calling Preflop Raises

[Albert Moulton]

What about position relative to the bad player. Will you call a bad player's raise with marginal starting cards out of position just because he's bad? Or, do you still fold because of your bad position?

[Will in New Have]

The general concept of avoiding ones peers (and superiors) while making ones money off the poor players is almost axiomatic. Getting into a pot against a player whose game you respect is dangerous.

However, there are many bad players whose raising standards when opening the pot in late position are higher and more predictable than the standards of many good players that I am almost tempted to reversee your position against late position open-raisers. In games where stealing the blinds is a decent source of chips, good players steal.

[JPFisher55]

I only play online poker so it is harder to tell the really bad players who never drop a hand. Also, calling raises with these marginal hands increases variance with a little profit.

[poker_n00b]

First, is calling preflop raise really isolating? I always thought it is raising or reraising a bad player to increase the chance of getting heads-up.

Second, I want to say that you can exploit errors in almost every player. It is that they are more prevalent in bad players.

You mentioned that the good player will often only stab once and then give up. Well, then you need to float more ofen and betting the turn.

It is just the idea of avoiding the good players that I don't like. I think I am too competitive-minded for that. However, don't get me wrong, I will adjust my play to good players. And my play might resemble yours: playing fewer pots against them, overcalling with hands that win big pots, etc.

And, yeah, please describe in greater detail the hands you play. Suited kings is just too broad.

[JLimbs]

[ QUOTE ]
First, is calling preflop raise really isolating? I always thought it is raising or reraising a bad player to increase the chance of getting heads-up.

Second, I want to say that you can exploit errors in almost every player. It is that they are more prevalent in bad players.

You mentioned that the good player will often only stab once and then give up. Well, then you need to float more ofen and betting the turn.

It is just the idea of avoiding the good players that I don't like. I think I am too competitive-minded for that. However, don't get me wrong, I will adjust my play to good players. And my play might resemble yours: playing fewer pots against them, overcalling with hands that win big pots, etc.

And, yeah, please describe in greater detail the hands you play. Suited kings is just too broad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't go into extreme detail in my last post, so here is a better outline of my general strategy.

Yes I understand playing suited kings for raises sounds like a -EV play and in many situations it is. I only do this in position and normally for smallish raises that are between 3 and 4 times the blind (In most live casino games the standard raise is at least 5x blind).

It also depends how weak my opponent is. I generally look for spots against weak players that have deep stacks and have fundamental flaws in their game. Things like:

1. Underbetting hands, which allows me to draw cheaply.

2. Trouble folding hands, which ensures that I will get paid off.

3. Cut and dry betting patterns, many players check call draws and weak hands and will continue to lead with strong hands.

4. Inability to fold a draw, players that are incapable of folding draws (even weak ones) can add a lot of value to your top pair/no kicker hands. Especially if they fall into category 3 also.

5. Tendency to overbluff, players that can't help but fire 3 bullets. Also players that rarely concede pots on the river and try overbetting to steal.

Obviously the people on this website don't need me to explain what a bad player is or how to play against them. I guess the point is my strategy is never cut and dry and has a lot to do with specific reads or presumed value against weaker players. There are different adjustments I make against each of the playing flaws above, but talking about all of them would take way to long and would often times just be stating the obvious.

How passive the game is also has a lot to do with whether or not I am making these types of calls. In more aggressive games it makes it a lot harder to play hands that are potentially vulnerable and easily dominated. In passive games its easier to feel out your opponents.

I understand the idea of avoiding good players sounds a little weak and there are often times when you will lose value by folding the best hands against them. The main reason I do this is because in deep stacked games I look to play big pots and generally don't chase small ones. This helps manage swings and keep my decisions as easy as possible. This leads to fewer mistakes on my part.

The problem playing big pots against good players is that the cards matter a lot more then they do against bad players. Normally the only way you stack a good player it is hand over hand. As I stated in my previous post obviously I still play hands like pairs against them, but I try to avoid marginal spots which lead to difficult (and often uneccessary) decisions.

I am as competitive as the next person, however I try to gauge my results by my profit at the end of the day not by the number of pots I've won. Its all about quality... not quantity :-)

-Jerry

[mvdgaag]

Nice post. I think every good player knows to sometimes play these drawing hands against raises, because the implied odds are bigger with a raise than without.

It is very hard though, to be able to make them play for a profit, because you don't get these big pots very often.

With small pairs you hit your set or you don't and they can be played just around break even when you only continue with a set....

With a suited king you can catch a draw, build a pot and miss the draw or catch your flush and still loose a big one. Plus you have to throw it away quite often if you don't get a draw. Payoffs are not big enough in gegeral if you play them just for the flush.

How do you try go get the extra profit that makes them profitable? Bluffs? Playing top pair no kicker? I've tried playing AXs and KXs against raises but had a hard time making them play profitable, because your A or K can't be played against a preflop raiser without kicker and drawing gets expensive. Are your opponents very passive or do they fold easily or am I missing something?

Thanx!