Is this considered offensive?

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]

this is absolutely stupid thinking. cmon, are you serious? many of the plays people make on hsp are read based. these poeple play against each other all the time! they are going to make plays that seem stupid to us. you can't possibly watch hsp and expect to know how DN would fare.

i'm not saying that i disagree with you on how he would do against top NL players. it's just that your logic for establishing that are horribly flawed.

to say that online is more "pure" is also stupid in my opinion. the only "pure" form of poker involves SEEING your opponent and making decisions based on reads. live poker is the most pure form of the game. it's truly instincts vs instincts. online is more of a disciplined game. and you may think that i'm just another biased live grinder but you'd be wrong because i am another 12 tabler on stars. i don't consider that real poker of course, and to say that online poker is more "pure" than live poker is utterly ludicrous and STUPID in my opinion. poker was made by live play; online is just another outlet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No man, your logic is retarded. You can defend anybody's play by saying that they had a "read" and dismissing it as variance or something. I'm not talking about just the big hands where Negreanu couldn't fold when it was obvious he was beat, there are other fundamental things like calling raises OOP 10 handed with A9o/KJo, etc. Like I said, an extreme example would be Jamie Gold. I've seen him play in HSP and the WSOP, much like I have with Daniel, and I don't need to have played with him myself to know he is a bad player. And come on, all these guys that have played with each other were playing mixed games or a main event donkament with 30bbs. This is totally different on so many levels.

And how can "live" be more pure when it's about more about physical reads and tells than it is about hand reading and poker fundamentals. How on earth is that pure? Online takes away the physichal advantages and is just pure poker. If you're arguing that you're not very smart, or you're just a DN fanboy with your head up your ass.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Daniel. I didn't find anything he did or said offensive. But on the subject of poker, SPECIFICALLY NL cash, there are a lot of better players than him, many posting on this forum.

[Wheel Gunner]

I watched the video expecting the worst as I have seen Daniel on TV imitating Asians and I thought that might be a little bit over the line. Not only was I not offended but I thought it was funny as hell. The fact that I am I black man does not mean much. His character was a Jamaican, as an American black man I don't identify with Jamaicans at all, the fact that we may share a common skin tone is irrelevant. If a Jamaican came on here and said they were offended I would respect that

[GeniusToad]

DN - i'm a difficult person to offend, but as you're finding out and will find out as you continue to pursue comedy, many aren't. when you do something you intend to be humorous but has an element of controversy to it, you can't be very surprised when you get some negative feedback. not everyone knows, or even cares, that you're probably a nice guy that means no real harm. in the end, however, if you're truly funny, you'll be amazed at the potentially or seemingly offensive things that people are willing to overlook in exchange for a good laugh.

as far as the hijack topics:

as long as you have confidence in your assertions and courage in your convictions, you shouldn't be bothered with the potential criticism that comes with strat posting. the benefits to the 2+2 community and the poker community in general would far outweigh any minor ego bruising that would result from dabbling in strat from time to time. if, however, as you also mentioned, you're just "over it", then that's another matter. we can't encourage you to do something you have no motivation or interest in any longer. either way, i think it's a shame to not have more strategy input from such an accomlished live cash game and tourney player, especially one that may think differently than the typical 2+2'er.

i believe the talented young crop of online players with a deep mathematical and psychological understanding of the game and who are benefiting more than any group of players in poker history from the wealth of information available about the game would quickly learn to crush the biggest live games (some are already doing so) if they played enough with the same players like the players in the regular "big game" do. proof of that assertion, however, is very difficult and i suppose the only real proof will be time.

good luck with your poker, comedy, and other endeavors.

[restrikt]

Daniel, I just read your latest blog entry, where you mention some of the stuff from this thread.

You claim that you don't like online poker because it makes you "impatient" or "bores" you. You really think playing 20 hands / hour in a casino is LESS BORING than playing 200+ hands/hour online?

You also said that you can't focus playing online because the stakes are so small. So you'll sit through a gruelling tournament, but 200/400 to 300/600 online are small stakes for you?

You claim that you prefer live play because you believe you have a huge edge with regards to physical tells. And more specifically, you claim it's easier to bluff online since you no one can get a "physical read" on you. While this may be true for lower stakes players, do you really think that most of the high stakes players online are huge tell boxes in a live setting?

And once again, you failed to see the meaning of my previous post. You claimed that there's no point posting on these forums because you have your own circle of friends like Harman, Lindgren, Cunningham, etc. to discuss poker wtih. My argument is that since there are players BETTER THAN THEM at CERTAIN forms of poker who POST ON 2+2, how is it NOT to your advantage to post here and discuss?

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
All thought-policing is bad, in my opinion. PC thought-policing as well as every other type.

[/ QUOTE ]

People who say things like this, do they really believe it and live by it?

If your boss was being an [censored], would you tell him that in so many words?

If your girlfriend says "Do I look fat in this dress?", and she does, do you say yes?

"Thought-policing" is a pretty basic element of civilized behaviour.

[nation]

[ QUOTE ]
No man, your logic is retarded. You can defend anybody's play by saying that they had a "read" and dismissing it as variance or something. I'm not talking about just the big hands where Negreanu couldn't fold when it was obvious he was beat, there are other fundamental things like calling raises OOP 10 handed with A9o/KJo, etc. Like I said, an extreme example would be Jamie Gold. I've seen him play in HSP and the WSOP, much like I have with Daniel, and I don't need to have played with him myself to know he is a bad player. And come on, all these guys that have played with each other were playing mixed games or a main event donkament with 30bbs. This is totally different on so many levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all, i believe that a complete poker player can play all the games. i would say that negreanu is a "better" player than aba for that reason. if they played a mix game, negreanu would be a favorite. i'm sorry, but nl holdem isn't the be all and end all of being a top poker player.

my argument here is that i don't think its possible for you to make judgments on DN just bc of HSP. as i said earlier, i agree with you that he would get crushed, but my reasons for that would be that guys like aba are specialists. dn plays mix games mostly, and nl tournaments which are a lot diff from cash games obviously. those specific plays you saw on HSP are not the reasons why DN would lose to aba.

[ QUOTE ]
And how can "live" be more pure when it's about more about physical reads and tells than it is about hand reading and poker fundamentals. How on earth is that pure? Online takes away the physichal advantages and is just pure poker. If you're arguing that you're not very smart, or you're just a DN fanboy with your head up your ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

this statement is ludicrous. i believe that physical tells are just as important to hand reading as anything else. its a different skill set, and in my opinion is the ultimate form of poker. you can't get excited, you can't make a big bet and say out loud "fold dammit."

there's a lot of stuff that DN does very well in live poker that online players don't, and he would pick up on their tells quickly. also, just because i think physical tells equal pure poker more than online, that doesn't make me less smart or stupid or something. i dont know where thats coming from. also i'm not a dn "fanboy" i don't think i've ever been to his forum or anything like that.

i think you're dead wrong on 1. whether you can make a judgment on DN from HSP and 2. whether online poker is a more "pure" form of poker than live, although we haven't really defined it yet. in my opinion, live poker is a huge test of discipline physically and your opponent has many more tools like table talking, intimidation etc. poker spawned from live play and online is just a bastardization of that.

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All thought-policing is bad, in my opinion. PC thought-policing as well as every other type.

[/ QUOTE ]

People who say things like this, do they really believe it and live by it?

If your boss was being an [censored], would you tell him that in so many words?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd try to think of a more constructive comment to make, hopefully. Fire does not always have to be fought with fire, you know [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]

If your girlfriend says "Do I look fat in this dress?", and she does, do you say yes?



[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Of course. Honesty is by far the best policy in personal relationships. I'd want her to be similarly honest with me, too.

[ QUOTE ]
"Thought-policing" is a pretty basic element of civilized behaviour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see kindness, tolerance and respect as the basic elements of civilized behavior. I don't see thought-policing as one of the basic elements of civilized behavior. Maybe you and I are defining "thought-policing" somewhat differently, though.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All thought-policing is bad, in my opinion. PC thought-policing as well as every other type.

[/ QUOTE ]

People who say things like this, do they really believe it and live by it?

If your boss was being an [censored], would you tell him that in so many words?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd try to think of a more constructive comment to make, hopefully. Fire does not always have to be fought with fire, you know [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]

If your girlfriend says "Do I look fat in this dress?", and she does, do you say yes?



[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Of course. Honesty is by far the best policy in personal relationships. I'd want her to be similarly honest with me, too.

[ QUOTE ]
"Thought-policing" is a pretty basic element of civilized behaviour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see kindness, tolerance and respect as the basic elements of civilized behavior. I don't see thought-policing as one of the basic elements of civilized behavior. Maybe you and I are defining "thought-policing" somewhat differently, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes kindness, tolerance and respect lead to the practice of thought-policing, was my point. And by the way, didn't you really mean speech-policing?

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]

first of all, i believe that a complete poker player can play all the games. i would say that negreanu is a "better" player than aba for that reason. if they played a mix game, negreanu would be a favorite. i'm sorry, but nl holdem isn't the be all and end all of being a top poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be that as it may, we're talking about NLHE and not mixed games. I never said Aba/Durr/Bld were more complete players, if I did perhaps you can correct me on that then. Pretty much all the top HSNL players also play PLO as well, FWIW. And the reason that all the top lives pros are 100x better at mixed games is because they aren't popular. If it was then I'm sure there would be a lot of great all around players on the internet as well.

[ QUOTE ]
my argument here is that i don't think its possible for you to make judgments on DN just bc of HSP. as i said earlier, i agree with you that he would get crushed, but my reasons for that would be that guys like aba are specialists. dn plays mix games mostly, and nl tournaments which are a lot diff from cash games obviously. those specific plays you saw on HSP are not the reasons why DN would lose to aba.

[/ QUOTE ]

However you want to look at it dude.

[ QUOTE ]

this statement is ludicrous. i believe that physical tells are just as important to hand reading as anything else. its a different skill set, and in my opinion is the ultimate form of poker. you can't get excited, you can't make a big bet and say out loud "fold dammit."

[/ QUOTE ]

To gain physical reads requires no poker knowledge whatsoever. Does that illustrate my point?

[ QUOTE ]
there's a lot of stuff that DN does very well in live poker that online players don't, and he would pick up on their tells quickly. also, just because i think physical tells equal pure poker more than online, that doesn't make me less smart or stupid or something. i dont know where thats coming from. also i'm not a dn "fanboy" i don't think i've ever been to his forum or anything like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but unless some of the HSNL internet players were giving off excessive amounts of information in regards to tells I don't think DN's live reading skills are enough to offset the fact that guys like Aba/Bld understand the game much better and do a lot of things much better than Daniel.

[ QUOTE ]
i think you're dead wrong on 1. whether you can make a judgment on DN from HSP and 2. whether online poker is a more "pure" form of poker than live, although we haven't really defined it yet. in my opinion, live poker is a huge test of discipline physically and your opponent has many more tools like table talking, intimidation etc. poker spawned from live play and online is just a bastardization of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker spawned from online play because there was no such thing as "online" when the game was created. Poker became popular through online play as if it wasn't painfully obvious.

[ahnuld]

I find it awesome than DN changed his tone in this thread about his playing abilities. In some thread a month back I said DN was probably out of his element vs the online nlhe pros and would lose. Now he's admitting that while he would undoubtedly kick their asses in a mixed game, he would probably be a dog to these specialists. Also, nice to see you are admitting your advantage of playing in real life vs the internet. Takes a big man to admit when hed be an underdog, but those are some pretty accurate statements you've made in this thread all around.