TT and JJ facing 3bets cold

[jstill]

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Remember if you don't cap it will often getted capped anyway. It might be useful to see who, if anyone, does that.

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how often it gets capped anyways depends on the pfr's opening range vs his capping range. Since many raise 66+ utg and A9o KJo QJs ect and most of them only cap JJ+ and AKs or AKo its much much more often not getting capped (and if u dont know that much about their opening range and capping range u really haven't done urself that much of a favor just calling trying to get more info but some sure). And typically the only one with a chance to cap besides urself is the opener if ur in the blind so I dont really get the see "who" caps part of ur statement. If in the sb, BB cold calling a cap gives almost as much info as if u call and he caps.

Coming up with examples of hand histories where it worked out better for u by not capping is also pretty ludicris, unnecessary and really proves nothing. You could do the same thing for JJ QQ or KK for that matter after hundreds of thousands of hands, and you could also probably come up with a million examples where you passed up skylansky bucks by not capping that are more valuable IMO than the considerations pushing us towards not capping (added info on the opener and not gaining initiative).

This is completely unsubstantiated but I feel like in these multiway pots I really dont think its that much harder to get away from TT when ur beat cuz u cap. In ur example if u capped sure maybe AK wouldnt have raised and u would have called down but chances are ur ending up losing the same number of bets postflop u would have anyways most of the time whether u cap or not(like u would have here if BTN didnt decide to raise the flop).

I've done nothing here to prove we should cap just wanted to point out some flaws in ur proof about why we shouldn't cap TT here.

[TomBrooks]

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Remember if you don't cap it will often getted capped anyway. It might be useful to see who, if anyone, does that.

[/ QUOTE ]how often it gets capped anyways depends on the pfr's opening range vs his capping range...etc etc

[/ QUOTE ]
If noone else caps that is good information, just as it's good information if someone else does cap. If you cap you lose the chance to get that information from you're opponents either way. And from the start, lets not forget (unless you disagree), TT is not such a strong hand against a 3betting range from the get-go. JJ is considerably better than TT. Being IP or OOP changes the value of both hands also.


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Coming up with examples of hand histories where it worked out better for u by not capping is also pretty ludicris, unnecessary and really proves nothing.

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I came up with example after example in a row from the hands I had TT just by looking for hands I lost the most money with without going past the flop. I didn't search or dig around to find hands to prove some preconcieved point.

[timoK]

TT is a very marginal hands against thinking opponents especial OOP.
You just dont want to sit in BB with TT and facing a flop with on card >T against at least one LAG

[colgin]

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You just dont want to sit in BB with TT and facing a flop with on card >T against at least one LAG

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That's funny. Seems like a pretty good spot to me.

[Oink]

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That's funny. Seems like a pretty good spot to me.

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I have to agree with this.

Stop folding TT preflop unless one of the raisors are extremely tight. Its the 5'th best hand you can get. What are you waiting for?

[mjkidd]

It's not the fifth best hand; it's sixth by a lot. AK is probaby better than JJ against a raise and reraise; AK and JJ are both quite a bit better than TT.

[Oink]

Its the 5'th best as a poker hand. I know that AKs is more profitable for most players

[Grendel]

Add my name to the list of callers with TT. IMHO, it *is* worth something to know if the original raiser caps, and if it happens, you're not missing any value, anyway. Though in general I am not all that happy about the power of TT vs a pf raise and 3bet.

With JJ I'll tend to raise with position and call from the blinds.

I don't consider folding pf with either.

-Grendel

[danzasmack]

"Remember if you don't cap it will often getted capped anyway."

I would say you see a showdown a lot cheaper if you cap pf, but that's just a side note

[tom10167]

If TT is the 5th best hand then pocket sixes are in the top 10 starting hands.