PS $0.50/$1 Full Table....Gross misplay of QQ in MTW pot

hokie-legend · #1 02-16-2007, 11:49 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($58.50)
SB ($63.50)
BB ($59)
UTG ($45.65)
UTG+1 ($128.60)
MP1 ($100.20)
Hero ($61.70)
MP3 ($56.65)
CO ($59.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, Button raises to $8, 2 folds, UTG calls $6, Hero calls $6, CO calls $6.

Flop: ($33.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($33.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets $7, Hero??

No real reads yet, only 9 hands with these guys so far.

When UTG minraised I thought he could have a big hand and decided to see what the flop brought, in retrospect maybe a better move would be to reraise to like $9 to isolate against him. As played I got a 3rd caller(CO) and then a reraise to $8 by the button. I thought this raise would give me a little more info about the UTG raiser but he just calls and I thought ok he could still be slowplaying a big hand like AA but this is not as likely now since he would probably want to get heads up instead of playing aces in a 4 way pot potentially. Button I figured either had a hand like AK, AQ, TT+, or was making a postional raise and was trying to pickup the dead money in the pot. Wasn't too concerned about the CO and figured he had a mid pair or a couple broadway cards like KQ,QJ, or a suited ace etc. At this point I looked at raising, but decided to play it conservative getting a little more than 3 to 1 and reevaluate on the flop. I hit the jackpot here hitting trips, and the UTG checked (could be slowplaying AA, have a drawing hand, or had like a mid pair), I decided to check here to get in a check raise against the button raiser. Looking back, the best play here is probably to pot it and force the draws to pay to see the turn. As played everyone checks flop and the turn brings the Ts. Horrible card...flush and straight draws got there and I am lost at this point as to where my hand stands. UTG now leads for $7 (1/5 pot bet) and he could have hit flush draw, now be playing his slowplayed aces, or maybe even have a hand like KJs. At this point here is what I am looking at. I have up to 18 outs if UTG has a straight and if he has a flush I have ten outs, 1 out if I am up against the aces and zero outs if he does indeed have KJs. I still have 2 people to act behind me all of which have made it look like they may be on a draw on this point. What's my play here? I feel like I butchered every street here and would love to hear some feedback on how to play this hand better the next time.

Ralph Wiggum · #2 02-16-2007, 11:53 AM

There's a full ring forum. I bet the flop.

ikestoys · #3 02-16-2007, 12:21 PM

bet/raise, on every street and preflop. don't go for a c/r in a 4 way pot.

i can't really give you any solid advice on how to play the hand as played because i'd never play it that way. I'd have to raise that 7 dollar bet though.

HoldEmNewby · #4 02-16-2007, 12:22 PM

tl;dr OP

WTF are you doing??? Raise it preflop when it comes to you. If he has AA lets find out earlier before we put half our stack in the pot by river. We aren't raising for info preflop, understand that. WE RAISE FOR VALUE. as played preflop button raise means dick. we're going 4 way in a mini 3bet flop. Not anywhere close to ideal for QQ but hopefully you learn a lesson from this.

Flop: The Gods have smiled on you. it was 4 way to the flop. You hit a set and there is an A on board. VALUE TIME. add in 2 to a flush out there: Bet the pot or at least $30. Get some value out of an A.

Turn: As played, who the hell knows. You've let everyone draw for free. With 2 players behind you yet to act. Just call and try to fill up.

FishSticks · #5 02-16-2007, 12:39 PM

HoldEmNewby is on the money.

Raise this preflop like always. You're allowing all sorts of weirdo hands in by limping and will just end up tricking yourself on the flop when you have no idea where you stand, but know that you can't just fold your queens.

Bet this flop like always. With this multi-way action someone is going to have a straight draw, a flush draw, or an ace - and odds are you're actually up against a few of those. I'd bet hard at this flop, at least $30 - someone will give you action.

As played, you have no idea where you stand, so at this point it's best to do damage control and try to show the hand down as cheaply as possible. Just call here and pray that the folks behind you don't raise.

There is a whole lot going on here that is wrong. I'm not trying to flame you, but I do want you to understand that this whole hand is goofed up. Realize that QQ is not a hand that plays well multiway, and you need to be raising this preflop because a) it's probably the best hand and b) so you have a good chance of playing the hand heads up. You want multiway pots for your suited connectors, low pocket pairs, and suited baby aces - but you absolutely do not want this to happen when you hold a big pair.

hokie-legend · #6 02-16-2007, 02:33 PM

n/m

eigenvalue · #7 02-16-2007, 02:46 PM

So far, I play NL $50 only but I think why the hell didn't you bet that flop? Given the pot size and your stack, I at least think about a shove here, but I'm not sure. In a hand with 4 players involved, I don't like pot sized bets, they are usually to weak to protect a strong hand. So a shove might be good. You are ahead of every hand except AA!

As played, I think it's now an easy fold on the turn. You are squeezed, a call would be very weak and a waste of money because you have to fold to any reasonable reraise.

RiverHebrew2 · #8 02-16-2007, 03:03 PM

I'd raise to $22. You have mid set with the 2nd nut flush draw, so you still have a big hand. If he shoves in, I still call b/c you've got all those nice outs. PLZ bet the flop like $25 or $30, and build a pot from AK or AQ (the button reraiser), or at least build a pot from a draw while protecting your hand.

JCurtin · #9 02-16-2007, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So far, I play NL $50 only but I think why the hell didn't you bet that flop? Given the pot size and your stack, I at least think about a shove here, but I'm not sure. In a hand with 4 players involved, I don't like pot sized bets, they are usually to weak to protect a strong hand. So a shove might be good. You are ahead of every hand except AA!

As played, I think it's now an easy fold on the turn. You are squeezed, a call would be very weak and a waste of money because you have to fold to any reasonable reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe my sarcasm detector is broken, but is this seriously the line you advise taking??? "Easy fold"?!? Please elaborate.

Hokie - if you take this advice and fold middle set with 2nd nut flush draw to a 20% pot bet there is no helping you. Obviously the hand was played poorly, but at this point you have to raise. If you are beat, then you are beat, but there is no hand that has you crushed. Against a flush, you can fill up. Against a straight you can fill up or hit a flush (assuming he doesn't have K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]). Against AA you can hit a flush too.

The fact that you only start the hand with 60% buy in helps your decision. In my opinion, you should be willing to committ yourself to the hand by raising to about $40. You cannot get away from this hand at this point.

I'm interested to see the results.

hokie-legend · #10 02-16-2007, 04:41 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($58.50)
SB ($63.50)
BB ($59)
UTG ($45.65)
UTG+1 ($128.60)
MP1 ($100.20)
Hero ($61.70)
MP3 ($56.65)
CO ($59.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, Button raises to $8, 2 folds, UTG calls $6, Hero calls $6, CO calls $6.

Flop: ($33.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($33.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets $7, Hero raises to $30, CO folds, Button folds, UTG raises to $37.65, Hero calls $7.65.

River: ($108.80) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $108.80

Results below: 
UTG has Js Kc (straight, ace high).
Hero has Qh Qs (full house, queens full of eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $108.80. 

I decided to pot commit myself on the turn instead of potting it on the flop..I was hoping to get in a checkraise on the flop but not a great play in a multiway pot and I have learned my lesson....I got lucky on the river but I did have 18 outs based on him having KJo (straight)..next time I will most likely reraise on the flop to like $9 and pot this if I get a couple callers on the same flop and move in on any turn