River Bet: Value Bet, or Big Hairy Donkey Bet?

[HoneyBadger]

I do. Though there is a gradual difference between 22 and 66. I might fold 22 if the game is not right (you do need action when you flop a set!), but I'd definitely play something as good as 66.

[HoneyBadger]

Oh btw, another good reason to bet the turn here is to avoid being in a difficult situation. Better players would spot these inconsistent betting patterns and might very well donk the river with a busted draw. This puts you in a very difficult situation: are you going to call now?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
I do. Though there is a gradual difference between 22 and 66. I might fold 22 if the game is not right (you do need action when you flop a set!), but I'd definitely play something as good as 66.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an important point. I think 66 is MUCH stronger than 22. It holds up much more easily. A hand like 88 is a hand that I like more than most, because it does hold up unimproved even in 3 or 4 handed pots more than you might expect. Mid pairs are very challenging hands, but have a lot of value outside simply set potential.

22, on the other hand, has much less likelihood of holding up unimproved, and so I restrict playing it to situations where the set value is clear. 22 also has less potential straight value (fewer OESDs to make).

[Alex424]

just when i think i am gettin the hand of this game i realise im not lol!!

are suited connectors down to 54s and Axs played in the same way??

[HoneyBadger]

No, they are much weaker. First, a suited ace has reverse implied odds problems: you might hit your pair of aces and be left in the dark whether your hand is good or you're drawing to 3 outs. You also only flop a flush draw about 7:1 so you're still left drawing: you don't have a made monster. Finally, you need to improve and often improving to a pair of 5s or 4s is not going to be enough. 98s is much stronger, because a pair of 9s often is enough. Same goes for A9s. (A9s is not a better hand than A2 because of the kicker when you hit an ace, but because of the bigger pair when you hit a 9 instead of a 2)

[W. Deranged]

The key differences are:

Suited connectors: These hands really NEED to make big hands to win. Unlike pairs, they don't have immediate showdown value. When they do make pairs, they are marginal. So these hands need the multiple opponents. They have fewer options to make good hands.

The benefits are that these hands tend to be easier to play.

With suited connectors, though, I'm much pickier than pairs. I wouldn't limp 67s in MP after two limpers in many situation, for example, but I would almost always limp 55.


Suited As: These hands can make a winner without hitting a monster hand, namely by making a pair of As that are good. But therein lies the problem; they are subject to domination and can be tough to play. For that reason, I think it is very critical to play these hands carefully, and to avoid playing them in marginal positions. They are arguably the most vulnerable of the three to the wiles of position. So I'd think very hard before limping A5s in middle position behind two limpers.

[RadioMike]

Well, I want to thank everybody for their thoughts on this one.

I had no thoughts of folding pre-flop, and did not raise because of the two limpers in front of me, I wanted more callers behind for set value.

I raised the flop because I had been running all over this table all night with agression, and I thought I might take the pot right there. Thank you, Deranged, for the compliment on this play.

When the villian cold-called two bets after my raise, I got scared he would check-raise me with an 8 or 9 on the turn. That is why I checked behind, hoping the free card would be a 6 or 7. I understand why most of you feel I should bet the turn and fold if raised, and I'll try to be more consistant in these situations.

When villian checked the river, I'm not entirely sure why I bet, hence this post. I guess after he checked both the turn and river, and no flush came, I figured he was weak.

If anyone cares, he called with A-5 of hearts - busted flush draw, but a small pair. I guess he thought I had nothing (and he was mostly correct).

I felt kind of dirty after this one.

Anyway, thank again for all of your replies - this forum is fantastic.

-mike

[EGO]

OK, I know this thread is old, but I saw it in the digest and thought to comment.

If my opponents will lose alot of bets when I flop a set, then I limp here. A small set can stand a raise pre-flop, and if it is, you can expect to be four or five handed, which isn't too bad for your implied odds.

I don't mind flop raise, since it improves our chances of winning greatly by folding out all those nasssty overcards that beat us. OTOH, the pot is pretty small, so folding might be OK, too. If we read our opponent as one to bet his draws and slowplay/check-raise his better hands, then a raise is fine, and probably what I would do.

I'm torn between betting and checking the turn. We picked up a gutshot to go along with our 2-outer if we are behind. I'd probably bet again, and check the river unimproved, since we are inviting the villian to bluff into us on the river while we are unsure if he slowed down with a great hand or maybe he's bluffing. This isn't the type of hand I want to induce a bluff on.

However, I don't see your opponent checking trips or better twice against someone who raised him on the flop, but I also don't see him calling with anything that we beat. That Q completed the JT straight we just bought a free card (and he might put us on), so he probably isn't calling with something that 66 beats. Check behind and realize you probably missed your best chance to maximize your bets on the turn.