Best athlete in a team sport

[jstnrgrs]

I tried to ask this question several months ago with baseball, but the issue of positions made it difficult. So I am going to try with volleyball (indoor, 6v6, no subs, must rotate, etc).

Suppose there are 12 volleyball players, and we want to devise a competition that will rank them reasonably. Would the following be a good system:

1) randomly divide the players into two teams of 6.

2) play a game between these two teams

3) assign one point to each player on the winning team

4) repeat steps 1 through 3 many times

5) rank the players by how many points they have.

[prohornblower]

As long as every single combination of 6v6 was played out, I suppose you could conclude that the highest scoring player would be the "best".

I think it would work better if the players didn't rotate (within the game), and you played out every single combination of 6v6 where every player has equal time in each spot (center, back row...etc.)

[dms]

This system will only determine the player that can win best with these 11 teamates. So, if that's what you consider to be the best player, then ok. But suppose that 11 of the players are Michael Jordan in his prime. He's sick-nasty except for the fact that he cannot set the ball to his teamates to save his life. The 12th player is some dude who can't jump, but can set the ball brilliantly and is just quick enough to get to the ball after one of the Jordans controls the other teams spike.

The side with the 6 Jordans messes up the set everytime they get it and never gets a chance to use their athletic ability to spike it and win the point. The 12th guy makes it possible for his teamates to spike it and win points.

However, the 12th guy can keep the ball alive on his own. He can only set. A team 6 of the 12th guys would at best be able to set it over the net if they could even keep it alive. A team of 6 Jordans could spike many of the shots right back at them to win points.

...One of the Jordans could be one of 6 teamates on the highest level team. One of the 12th guys couldn't be on a decent college team. But this system would say the 12th guy is the best athlete.

[grando]

volleyball is terrible because positions are so specialized (moreso than baseball)

if you wanted to do it for baseball, you could get something like 8 teams, and have those players split into teams based on their position (i.e. put a pitcher on each team, 1B, 2B, etc.) and randomize it that way and play a round robin with the points system that you talk about

it would prove to be a decent way to rank them if the round robin was significant enough

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
volleyball is terrible because positions are so specialized (moreso than baseball)

if you wanted to do it for baseball, you could get something like 8 teams, and have those players split into teams based on their position (i.e. put a pitcher on each team, 1B, 2B, etc.) and randomize it that way and play a round robin with the points system that you talk about

it would prove to be a decent way to rank them if the round robin was significant enough

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, it's slightly off topic, but how is volleyball more position specialized than baseball? I specifically, said no subs, and must rotate, so it seems to me that every player within the team is identical in terms of position.

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
This system will only determine the player that can win best with these 11 teamates. So, if that's what you consider to be the best player, then ok. But suppose that 11 of the players are Michael Jordan in his prime. He's sick-nasty except for the fact that he cannot set the ball to his teamates to save his life. The 12th player is some dude who can't jump, but can set the ball brilliantly and is just quick enough to get to the ball after one of the Jordans controls the other teams spike.

The side with the 6 Jordans messes up the set everytime they get it and never gets a chance to use their athletic ability to spike it and win the point. The 12th guy makes it possible for his teamates to spike it and win points.

However, the 12th guy can keep the ball alive on his own. He can only set. A team 6 of the 12th guys would at best be able to set it over the net if they could even keep it alive. A team of 6 Jordans could spike many of the shots right back at them to win points.

...One of the Jordans could be one of 6 teamates on the highest level team. One of the 12th guys couldn't be on a decent college team. But this system would say the 12th guy is the best athlete.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. So the setter would finish above all of the jordans, but if there were only one jordan, one setter, and 10 average players, the jordan would end up #1. Is this right?

If we were to ensure that the pool of players was well rounded in terms of skills (not individual players, but the pool overall), would this system work better at finding the best player?

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
volleyball is terrible because positions are so specialized (moreso than baseball)

if you wanted to do it for baseball, you could get something like 8 teams, and have those players split into teams based on their position (i.e. put a pitcher on each team, 1B, 2B, etc.) and randomize it that way and play a round robin with the points system that you talk about

it would prove to be a decent way to rank them if the round robin was significant enough

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, it's slightly off topic, but how is volleyball more position specialized than baseball? I specifically, said no subs, and must rotate, so it seems to me that every player within the team is identical in terms of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

In baseball, every player (other than the P and DH in the AL) has to play both offense and defense. In volleyball, there is a "defense-only" player (libero) who comes in for both middle hitters when it's their turn in the back row, and never attacks or blocks. Also, the setter (basically) never attacks and absolutely never receives the serve.

The outside hitters and right-side/opposite hitters are the most well-rounded since they're in the game in both the front and back, they'll be used to receive serve, and they'll also attack from the front and back row.

[dms]

Yes and yes.