[NL100SH] Top 2pair

[FishSticks]

I probably wouldn't 3-bet the flop here. Not much on the turn changes anything, and people love "picking off" c-bets (especially weak looking cbets) here with crappy stuff, or just want to settle the hand now with top pair. I don't think KQ felts it on the flop here, but I do think it will lead the turn if we flat call on the flop.

Edit: Forgot to say, I'd play it exactly the same, except bet stronger on the flop (at least $10 into the 2 opponents there). Your line gets the money from more holdings than a flop push does.

[MTSuper7]

Rabenstein, I don't think you're overplaying top two pair in this spot at all. From what I've seen of play at this level, I certainly wouldn't play this hand in fear of 44. The BB was getting over 2:1 odds preflop, and some people will call with any two suited cards in this position. While 44 is a possible holding, I wouldn't be surprised by a preflop call with Q4s or T4s. The BB certainly would play his two pair aggressively, right?

Did you have any read on the BB? That would be the only additional information that could help. He could have also been semi-bluffing with J9 or KJ. A lot depends on how tricky the BB has been perceived.

[ImsaKidd]

Lead more on flop, I think 3b or flatcalling flop is fine.

[Ineluki]

From a new player/poster, isn't betting more on the flop going to chase away hands that we want along for the ride? Will players really call a flop bet of $10 if they were going to call $7? Isn't that read dependant?

[JackAll]

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Do i overplay top 2pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol ... hell no

[Michaelson]

[ QUOTE ]
From a new player/poster, isn't betting more on the flop going to chase away hands that we want along for the ride? Will players really call a flop bet of $10 if they were going to call $7? Isn't that read dependant?

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This probably isn't a very satisfactory response, but basically, in my experience, yes.

The $3 difference in bet sizes doesn't look a lot on the flop, but make all the difference down the track. As it turned out in this hand it didn't make a great deal of difference because of the check raise, but if you assume villain goes into calldown mode that first bet can make a huge difference:

Pre Flop: $12 +
Flop: $14 ($7x2) ($26)+
Turn: $36 ($18x2) ($62)+
River: $80 ($40x2)
---------------------
Pot size: $142

or

Pre Flop: $12 +
Flop: $20 ($10x2) ($32)+
Turn: $48 ($24x2) ($80)+
River: $120($60x2)
---------------------
Pot size: $200

Basically, even if you lose the odd hand here and there, those hands weren't going to stand much pressure anyway, and that flop bet can be the difference between playing for stacks and not.

[FishSticks]

[ QUOTE ]
From a new player/poster, isn't betting more on the flop going to chase away hands that we want along for the ride? Will players really call a flop bet of $10 if they were going to call $7? Isn't that read dependant?

[/ QUOTE ]

Michaelson gave some good logic here, but the general idea here is that in NL we make most of our money in big pots, and milking a loose call here or there isn't what really gives us our profit. If the villain here has a hand he really likes like TPTK, we might as well start building a big pot now so that we can make exponentially bigger bets on later streets.

Or, to really oversimplify, we want big pots with our big hands, and big bets is the way to accomplish this.

[Ineluki]

Doesn't that mean that we need to make some c-bets that same size too then when we have air? If not, observant opponents will be able to discern our patterns quite easily. Or am I getting too complicated for NL100?

[Michaelson]

Well, I think a lot of different factors should be taken into account when sizing c-bets, but generally, yes, they should look realistic and threaten big bets down the track.

[FishSticks]

Ineluki - you're not getting too complicated. When you have air, you want the opponent to fold, and a bigger bet is likely to accomplish that. Big bets apply maximum pressure, and maximum pressure causes opponents to make mistakes. Suppose in this example you had air, an opponent had JT. He very well might call 7, but probably won't call 13. However, in the actual hand here, if opponent has a queen he's calling 7, but he's also calling 12/13.

Bigtime players make bigtime bets in bigtime hands ;-)