The Pulsating Vein Tell

[andyfox]

I don't see how it's the same as taking advantage of a player who has shaking hands and therefore can't protect his cards well. That player does it every hand and is actually showing his cards to his neighbor(s). The pulsating vein is a physical reaction, like breathing heavier, or dilating pupils, to a particular hand.

If the player with the pulsating vein would take lessons from a master reader, that teacher would pick up on the pulsating vein and train the player either to control it or to cover it up with some kind of headwear.

[leaponthis]

There is also a device available to assist a player whose hands "shake". These things are not cheating. Sklansky is a nut case.

leaponthis

[iversonian]

[ QUOTE ]
Presto!

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Those look like hats, not 5's.

[rakemeplz]

'Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change.'

By far the most debatable part of your post.

[donkeykong2]

well almost all tells are given when players are not aware of it i think.

[ratel]

The answer is simple: if he wanted to prevent autonomic nervous system-derived tells, he should have taken a beta blocker. Beta-adregenic blockers such as propranolol totally prevent the body from feeling the effects of adrenaline and norepinephrine. In other words, when your amygdala is short-circuited by beta blockers, you couldn't have a "fight or flight" response even if you wanted to.

I once did an psychological experiment involving completing logic puzzles while being intermittently administered mild electric shocks while on propranalol. I could think 100% rationally and complete problem-solving tasks, but not being the least bit afraid of anticipating a shock was the most extraordinary feeling. I never realized how much I thrive on adrenaline and nervous energy until it was gone.

In sum, I have no ethical problems whatsoever with detecting involuntary tells--or the chemical suppression thereof. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Haunted Ghost]

You may be good at math but you're weak in psychology. This post of yours proves this.

[chauchmeyer]

The main question lies in whether or not his vein pulsating actually gives a "tell" of strength in my opinion. I have used this "tell" often and have been burnt many a time.
It's very tough to pick up on the fact that a pulsating vein could either be a sign of extreme nervousness or over anxiousness. In either case a pulsating vein gives no indication as to whether a person is holding a strong hand and is nervous in general or fearful of a call or raise.

It's not cheating and sort of a silly question really...A strong reader learns to pick up on whether or not a players vein pulsation is due to one of these facts.

How does he justify this read? By past play and their cards assuming they have shown their cards therefore it's a "tell" in that it involves thinking and judgement, not an observation.

I guess I didn't answer your question regarding if this was cheating, but only because it's overly simplistic and in actuality sort of ridiculous. Maybe look at the definition of cheating....

I think the discussion on whether this "tell" as you described is actually a sign of strength would be much more interesting...

Just my 2 cents,

E

[jjacky]

lets differenciate 3 cases:
a) someone is unable to figure out that a behavior he can control gives the opposition aditional information (for example leaning back in the chair in certain situations)
b) someone can't psychicaly control some kind of behavior that gives the opposition information (for example a tick (that he can't control) to blink in certain situations).
c) a physical problem (for example the pulsating vein).

why should some of these cases deserve special treatment and others not?
and why shouldn't we call all this stuff tells?

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
In an earlier post I asked whether it was cheating if you could see another player's cards or if you took advantage of the fact that the vein in his temple pulsated when he had a good hand. I was surprised by the fact that everyone put the second scenario under the category of picking up a tell.

His pulsating vein is NOT a tell by the normal definition of "tell". Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change. If you take advantage of it you are beating him based on something very similar to beating him due to the fact that his hands shake and you can see his cards because he can't protect them very well. If you want to argue that it is OK to take advantage of this kind of thing fine. But don't tell me that this falls under the category of routine tell detection.

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Seeing his cards because he is careless and making an attempt to see his cards are two different things. You are supposed to protect your hands at all times. Otherwise he would get an advantage by letting you see his cards, as you would be morally forbidden from acting on the information.