"Unions" for dealers?

[psandman]

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The point is it doesn't matter what the dealers want. If the dealers unionize, the dealers and the union both know it is in their best interests to pool.

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I disagree and I don't even understand why you might think this. The best chance dealers have to keep a house from going to a pool is to collectively bargain a Keep your system.


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Q: How do I conclude that there would be a push to kick up tokes to the floor.

A: Why did Wynn do it?? They now do not have use their own revenue to pay supervisory employees. If you do not think it will become the model for future gaming areas - so be it. My thinking is that Wynn is blazing the trail, and is not out on an island. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Cocktails and food are different because it is non-gaming.

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You make my argument for me. It happens anyway, so how do you reach the conclusion that a union would cause it to happen? Casinos may have an incentive to do this, so the best chance dealers have to prevent it is to unionize and collectively bargain so that the employer can't unilaterally impose it.

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Sandman, let's look at this rationally. Anyone who has worked in gaming knows that the Hotels have the right to implement anything they want.

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This is true to extent that there is no collective bargaining agreement contractually preventing it. Notice that Wynn didn't impose his system on the bartenders who are union, because he can't unilaterally impose it on them because he is bound to the terms of the contract.

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Why are there practically no dealer unions in the city???

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I believe the primary reason that dealers have not unionized is that until recently management of casinos has pretty much treated dealers substantially the way dealers wanted to be treated. But I believe therehas been a shift in the attitude of gaming management and dealers are starting to see more and more reasons to unionize. I very much believe that if the WYNN dealers go uinion Harrah's dealers eventually go union and then dealers will have a strong union presence.

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All I can say is that you seem to have made a poor choice in where you worked.

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There aren't a lot of choices these days. Thats part of the problem, without a union employers now have free run to do what they please, and if you don't like it, you can be easily replaced.

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Poker dealers pay taxes on $7.50/hour

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I don't know a single dealer in Vegas who only pays taxes on $7.50 per hour. For them to be paying taxes on $7.50 per hour they would have a tip compliance agreement of about $1.75 per hour nobody has this.

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75%-90% of them make between $25 and $35 per hour.

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Remember that most dealers aren't working in the best rooms. Think of all the dealers working at the Tropicana, Fitzgeralds, The Riviera and the simliar small rooms which have opened up, who come in on day shift during the week and sit and twiddle there thumbs waiting for a $2-$4 game to start. And then have a bunch of tourists who have never played the game before and don't toke (simply because they don't know that it is customary to do so) and even if they do toke they are so new and slow that its a mircale if you get 10 hands out in a down. Don't forget to figure these guys into your calculations.

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They have supervisors and board operators do all the work of opening the game, filling the seats, and getting chips for the players.

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This isn't true, most rooms require dealers to brush while on break.

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For that, they are required to toke the staff doing this ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

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Actually some rooms have an actual requirement that dealers tip out this staff, and even if it is not formally required it is expected (you know the same way players aren't required to toke dealers).

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They get full benefits

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Actually right now a large number of dealers do not get benefits, because rooms fill many positions as extra board. Right now it is virtually impossible to get a full-time poker dealing job in Vegas (even if you are working full-time hours).

I am very fortunate. I have a job that is the nuts. Even though I am still only extra board I get benefits get almost no heat, I doubt there are many dealers who make substantially more than I do on an hourly basis (I could use some more hours). I love my job and I would not support an attempt to unionize at that job. However because I have experience at lesser houses I am very aware of the fact that my job is not typical.

[psandman]

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Another thing sandman - The Wynn pit dealers are the best toked dealers in THE WORLD!!!!!!!!! After the layoff to the floor, thet are still 15 K better than any other pit dealing job in the world!

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Only if you accept Steve Wynn's version. Go ask them what they make ( on an hourly basis -- because the mandatory overtime makes it unfair to compare yearly wages) then compare to dealers at Ceasars, Bellagio, Mandalay Bay and I don't think your claim is going to hold up.

[juanez]

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This is the first I’ve heard of a rating system. I think it’s an awesome idea, but I’m pretty skeptical of how could actually work. If you get a chance, could you give a little more detail? The big problems I see are that a lot of things are hard to quantify and that many floor supervisors know less about dealing than many of the dealers.


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The rating system is based on several things. It's a piont system where you are awarded points for different catagories. There is a maximum # of points that can be awarded. The catagories include things like:
Attendance: the more you call in, the fewer points you receive.
Tardiness: the more you're late, the fewer points you receive. This one is interesting, because before the rating system there were a few dealers late every single day. After the system was implementd, VERY few ever arrived to work late.
Overs/shorts: points are deducted for the number of overage or shrtage in their trays.
Classes: the company requires you to take some classes every year. If you miss a class, points are deducted.
Appearance: Dealers who come to work unshaven, wrinkles clothing, etc. are deducted points.
Dealing skill: Yep, this one is a bit subjective. Thr Floor Supervisors are required to take notes about each dealer over the rating period about things like speed, pitch, board neatness, # of mistakes, etc. Depending on the general trend in theose notes a number of points are awarded.
And yes, Seniority: Points are awarded based on the # of years you have been with the company.

There are other criteria, but you get the idea.

[juanez]

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Do you believe that the if poker dealers paid union dues that were high enough to make it worthwhile for the union that the IRS woudl believe they make $5.15/hr plus another $5/hr in tips? I am pretty sure a union would know no more about poker than the pit people that have poker rooms and have the dealers pool.


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Since my OP was regarding Colorado, I should add that dealers here are required by law to report ALL tokes to the IRS. At the end of the night they take their toke boxes to the cage who counts the tokes, fills out the paperwork and the $$ comes in their paycheck every 2 weeks.

And tokes are not pooled here.

[RR]

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The point is it doesn't matter what the dealers want. If the dealers unionize, the dealers and the union both know it is in their best interests to pool.



I disagree and I don't even understand why you might think this. The best chance dealers have to keep a house from going to a pool is to collectively bargain a Keep your system.


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A big point for unions is for everyone to be treated equally. As it is right now the casinos are willing to collude with the dealers against the IRS. I don't think they would be willing to collude with a union.

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Actually right now a large number of dealers do not get benefits, because rooms fill many positions as extra board. Right now it is virtually impossible to get a full-time poker dealing job in Vegas (even if you are working full-time hours).

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This is a lot better for both the dealers and the rooms. If they had to work dealers full time there would be no EOs etc. There would be fewer dealers employed and there would be a lot more dead spreads if they have to have dealers around doing basically nothing because they have to use full time employees for the daily touranments. There also might be an over decline in business because rooms would be less willing to have these daily touranments and other events that cause a spike in games if they have to find full time positions for all their dealers.

[psandman]

andy,

I'm not saying all positions shopuld be full-time with no extra board, but many rooms are excessively filling extra-boards while creating no additional full-time positions. But my point here was that TG was basically making the claim that all poker dealers were getting full-benefits, while in Las Vegas this is far from the truth.