Is calling for a backdoor flush correct ?

[chip-star]

Is calling for backdoor flushs correct if you have the correct odds to call each time ?

Lets say your in a $1/$2 limit game and your on the button with KT of spades, 4 people have called before you and you also decide to call. the sb makes up the blind and the bb checks meaning the pot is now 7 small bets. The flop comes A72 rainbow but the 2 is a spade, the sb leads out with a bet and 3 others call, the action is now on you with the pot being 11 small bets.

Lets say the only way you can win this is to hit a backdoor flush, you have 10 outs to hit on the turn so your 3.6:1 to hit one and your getting 11/1 to call so should you call here ?

I thought that this was the correct play but others dont agree, who is right ?

Thanks

[hunter.chief]

No.
The BDFD adds about 1.5 outs to your hand. So with the BDFD alone odds should be around 30-1 approximately to continue chasing the BDFD.
Remember you have to hit turn AND river.

Edit: If the pot lays the proper odds it's clearly correct to call.
But in your example the odds aren't nearly as good as needed.

[Watkins]

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Is calling for backdoor flushs correct if you have the correct odds to call each time?

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As a general concept calling when you have the odds is correct, as long as you factor in the times when you may hit your draw and still lose.

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You have 10 outs to hit on the turn so your 3.6:1 to hit one and your getting 11/1 to call so should you call here?

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This is where you go wrong, you're not 3.6:1 to hit your draw, you're 3.6:1 to hit your draw to the draw, you need to hit on both the turn & river & the odds of that are quite different. Add to that the fact that you are drawing to the K high flush & bear in mind that anyone with trips further cripples your winning prospects.

You should treat a K high backdoor draw as about 1.5 outs, treat the A as about 2 outs. As a general rule these draws should only be encouraging you to take a marginal hand further. If you're chasing draws like this you're leaking money but on the plus side you make a pleasant opponent.

I'd advise you to read the King Yao book or Hilger's Odds & Probabilities which covers these topics in more depth.

[Assahai]

Calculate the effective odds here,
there is roughly about 5% chance you hit the runner runner flush, but you also must notice, that you will most likely have to put 1BB in the pot on the turn card.
Estimate the pot will be about 8BB on the turn and the final pot, IF you hit, around 12BB. You will have to put in at least 1.5BB to see the river. So the odds are roughly 6:1 , and you are getting only 20:1 drawing odds.

[seano34]

As everyone above has said you are not counting correctly.

If you read the Counting Outs section of SSHE (Small Stakes Hold Em by Ed Miller) you will get a better idea of this principle and the impact it has on your effective odds.

[halpgr]

The running flush draw alone is very rarely enough to stay in the pot for one bet on the flop. 1.5 outs is a good estimate for its value on the flop. Usually you have to add it to some other outs you may have to determine if you have pot odds to continue. It's mainly useful in close call/fold situations on the flop where the extra out can make the difference.

[neeeel]

I used to think like the OP, that you could call on the flop because you had 10 outs to hit a flush card. i know this is wrong, but is this because you may be correct to call on the flop since you have 10 outs, but when ur card comes on the turn, you may not have enough pot odds to call , so your flop bet was in fact a wasted bet?

[Araklion]

[ QUOTE ]

Calculate the effective odds here,
there is roughly about 5% chance you hit the runner runner flush, but you also must notice, that you will most likely have to put 1BB in the pot on the turn card.
Estimate the pot will be about 8BB on the turn and the final pot, IF you hit, around 12BB. You will have to put in at least 1.5BB to see the river. So the odds are roughly 6:1 , and you are getting only 20:1 drawing odds.

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That's not really correct, as you will certainly fold if you don't hit your 4 flush on the turn. If you hit it, you'll get correct odds to see the river.

[chip-star]

Thanks for your replies.

This isnt something i've done while playing as i wasnt sure if it was correct, i wasnt sure how the odds were effected by backdoor hands.


Thanks again


Thanks

[Assahai]

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That's not really correct, as you will certainly fold if you don't hit your 4 flush on the turn. If you hit it, you'll get correct odds to see the river.


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...and that is exactly what I said in the original post.
You need to put in at least 1.5BB to SEE the river.
Of course you will fold on the turn if you don't hit.

That doesn't still change the odds.