commerce 2/4 hand - Page 2

Garland · #11 02-10-2007, 09:54 PM

Caveat: I do not play this high.

Depending on the suits of KT (i.e. the more clubs in your hand the better--I would not even question a call with the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), would folding the flop be horrendously weak-tight?

I understand you're getting 8:1 closing the action. And I wouldn't question playing the hand on the flop if it went check-bet or bet-fold to you. But here are some negative scenarios that I believe will be quite costly (in order from more probable to least probable):

(a) SB bets with a made hand and BB takes one off with overs that dominate yours.
(b) SB bets or BB calls with 78 and gets there when you hit a T.
(c) Third [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] comes to give you top pair, but completes someone else's flush.
(d) Someone makes two pair when you make top pair (T9 or even K9s viable?)
(e) Someone currently flopped a made hand that you are drawing slim or dead to. (Two pair unlikely, but set?)

Just some ideas. Basically, I'm thinking reverse-implied odds. Someone could convince me this would be worth playing on the flop if he/she can debunk the above thinking.

As played, I believe it's such an extremely thin scenario that it doesn't matter what you do. I would probably check it given the description that BB was a "very good player".

Thanks,

Garland

johnnyrocket · #12 02-10-2007, 10:04 PM

this is an interesting spot, i think betting has a little more equity than checking does, it is somewhat close tho so not a poor play.

HOWMANY · #13 02-10-2007, 10:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Caveat: I do not play this high.

Depending on the suits of KT (i.e. the more clubs in your hand the better--I would not even question a call with the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), would folding the flop be horrendously weak-tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity wise this first time the fold wouldn't be bad at all, but even at lower levels some of the bad but observant players will start betting/raising in the situations they realize you're folding even when they don't have it, I'm sure at higher levels against opponents that aren't bad it will happen even more.

Ian J · #14 02-10-2007, 11:01 PM

Hi Brian,

Against Van, you should most certainly check. Nobody on here can know that though like I do. He is virtually never calling with a worse hand than yours and he's capable of a) having a bigger hand pretty easily and b) recogninzing that you can't like that river and raising you with the worst hand.

If I didn't have a club in my hand, I would probably fold the flop, but you played the turn well obviously.

bicyclekick · #15 02-12-2007, 03:54 AM

I checked and he had t7. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mad Genius1 · #16 02-12-2007, 04:25 AM

What are the merits to calling this flop?
The 10 does complete the most obvious straight draw and the King isn't always "clean" either..

Your Mom · #17 02-12-2007, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What are the merits to calling this flop?
The 10 does complete the most obvious straight draw and the King isn't always "clean" either..

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't just give up on the flop easily in these aggro games. You'll get runover. Look at what BK lost to. You don't want to fold when they probably have mid pair or a gutter or some other cheese.

spino1i · #18 02-12-2007, 04:24 PM

Yeh I mean im a little worried that you might be better off just throwing your KT away after his turn raise but I think in the end your ahead of enough smaller pairs with smaller kickers that its worth 3-betting here, espically to get a free river showdown. This helps you a lot as there are a lot of rivers you dont want to see, so getting the betting done on the turn really helps your situation out. I dont see what you stand to gain by betting on the river so I check as well. I like.

Flop call is fine. To those that dont know, its a basic concept called "floating".

Mad Genius1 · #19 02-12-2007, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop call is fine. To those that dont know, its a basic concept called "floating".

[/ QUOTE ]

Try the concepts "pot odds" and "reverse implied odds."

bicyclekick · #20 02-12-2007, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flop call is fine. To those that dont know, its a basic concept called "floating".

[/ QUOTE ]

Try the concepts "pot odds" and "reverse implied odds."

[/ QUOTE ]

Try the concepts of playing well and not being easy to play against.