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#11
02-11-2007, 03:01 AM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite. [/ QUOTE ] Are you talking about the makeup of the insurgency or of Iraq as a whole? (If you have numbers for the insurgency, could you give a link?) If you're talking about Iraq as a whole, what makes you assume that the Sunni/Shiite composition of the insurgency (and, presumably, attacks and deadly attacks on Americans in Iraq) would mirror the Sunni/Shiite composition of Iraq overall? [/ QUOTE ] Iraq as a whole, you're not going to get a membership roll from a clandestine group. Short version, why wouldn't it? Long version... both groups have interests in fighting the U.S. Sunnis are pissed that the U.S. took over, Shiites want the U.S. out in order to take full control of the country. The assumption isn't that the makeup of the insurgency isn't EXACTLY the same as Iraq, but that it can't overcome a 2 to 1 ratio. The standard of proof really lies on the opposite argument to prove. I can come up with several reasons why the number of Shiite attacks are more prevalent today, including Iran's involvement and Shiite militias like Sadr's, what evidence is there to conclude that Sunnis attack Americans twice as much per person than Shiites? 
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#12
02-11-2007, 03:08 AM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite. [/ QUOTE ] Are you talking about the makeup of the insurgency or of Iraq as a whole? (If you have numbers for the insurgency, could you give a link?) If you're talking about Iraq as a whole, what makes you assume that the Sunni/Shiite composition of the insurgency (and, presumably, attacks and deadly attacks on Americans in Iraq) would mirror the Sunni/Shiite composition of Iraq overall? [/ QUOTE ] Iraq as a whole, you're not going to get a membership roll from a clandestine group. Short version, why wouldn't it? Long version... both groups have interests in fighting the U.S. Sunnis are pissed that the U.S. took over, Shiites want the U.S. out in order to take full control of the country. The assumption isn't that the makeup of the insurgency isn't EXACTLY the same as Iraq, but that it can't overcome a 2 to 1 ratio. The standard of proof really lies on the opposite argument to prove. I can come up with several reasons why the number of Shiite attacks are more prevalent today, including Iran's involvement and Shiite militias like Sadr's, what evidence is there to conclude that Sunnis attack Americans twice as much per person than Shiites? [/ QUOTE ] I can't see how you could be anything other than agnostic on the question "What proportion of Sunnis and Shiites are responsible for American deaths in Iraq?" There's an answer, but I don't know it and it's not knowable given current available information. I don't think you've made logical inferences and reasonable conclusions based on what you know, or at least based on what you've presented here.
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#13
02-11-2007, 07:20 AM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] pure numbers game... CIA Factbook says Sunnis are outnumbered by 2 to 1. I severely doubt that Sunnis attack twice as much as Shiites, especially when problem areas are in places like Sadr City are Shiite. [/ QUOTE ] Are you talking about the makeup of the insurgency or of Iraq as a whole? (If you have numbers for the insurgency, could you give a link?) If you're talking about Iraq as a whole, what makes you assume that the Sunni/Shiite composition of the insurgency (and, presumably, attacks and deadly attacks on Americans in Iraq) would mirror the Sunni/Shiite composition of Iraq overall? [/ QUOTE ] Iraq as a whole, you're not going to get a membership roll from a clandestine group. Short version, why wouldn't it? Long version... both groups have interests in fighting the U.S. Sunnis are pissed that the U.S. took over, Shiites want the U.S. out in order to take full control of the country. The assumption isn't that the makeup of the insurgency isn't EXACTLY the same as Iraq, but that it can't overcome a 2 to 1 ratio. The standard of proof really lies on the opposite argument to prove. I can come up with several reasons why the number of Shiite attacks are more prevalent today, including Iran's involvement and Shiite militias like Sadr's, what evidence is there to conclude that Sunnis attack Americans twice as much per person than Shiites? [/ QUOTE ] I can't see how you could be anything other than agnostic on the question "What proportion of Sunnis and Shiites are responsible for American deaths in Iraq?" There's an answer, but I don't know it and it's not knowable given current available information. I don't think you've made logical inferences and reasonable conclusions based on what you know, or at least based on what you've presented here. [/ QUOTE ] does it really matter if ratio is 1.5 or 2.5? what's the difference? what is obvious is neither sunnis nor Shiites don't want US presence in iraq. the next thing obvious is that US administration is preparing field for attack on iran (does it really matter if those statements are true or not?). just remember two statements: ‘sometimes the truth is so precious it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies.’ -Donald Rumsfeld, September 25, 2001 “One of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror.” - George Bush 07 Sept. 2006
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#14
02-11-2007, 08:17 AM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
[ QUOTE ]
does it really matter if ratio is 1.5 or 2.5? what's the difference? what is obvious is neither sunnis nor Shiites don't want US presence in iraq. the next thing obvious is that US administration is preparing field for attack on iran (does it really matter if those statements are true or not?). just remember two statements: ‘sometimes the truth is so precious it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies.’ -Donald Rumsfeld, September 25, 2001 “One of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror.” - George Bush 07 Sept. 2006 [/ QUOTE ] Go Obama! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#15
02-11-2007, 01:04 PM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
What planet are we on? It is common knowledge that sunnis are responsible for most of the attacks on US troops. The Shiite areas are much safer and WE ARE ARMING THEM, which is why this is such a funny angle for the administration to take re: going to war with iran. ZOMG IRAN IS ARMING THEM TOO 10K FIGHT YO?!
[ QUOTE ] The vast majority -- more than 80 percent -- of American military deaths in Iraq are still being caused by Sunni insurgents, according to an ABC News analysis of data released for the month of October by the Defense Department. Of the 99 American soldiers killed in hostile action, at least 81 were killed by IED's or hostile fire in areas that are dominated by Sunni Arabs and where U.S. forces have been battling Sunni insurgents since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. By contrast, only three Americans were killed in areas dominated by Shiite Arabs. Fifteen were killed in central Baghdad where populations are mixed with Sunni and Shiite Arabs, and it is therefore difficult to determine the identity of the attackers. [/ QUOTE ] abc news
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#17
02-11-2007, 01:36 PM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
Attacks on Us troops are overwhelmingly carried out by Sunnnis and overwhelmingly take place in Sunnni dominated parts of Iraq, regardless of what the overall proportion Sunnis make up of the Iraqi population.
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#18
02-11-2007, 04:15 PM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
[ QUOTE ]
What planet are we on? It is common knowledge that sunnis are responsible for most of the attacks on US troops. The Shiite areas are much safer and WE ARE ARMING THEM, which is why this is such a funny angle for the administration to take re: going to war with iran. ZOMG IRAN IS ARMING THEM TOO 10K FIGHT YO?! [ QUOTE ] The vast majority -- more than 80 percent -- of American military deaths in Iraq are still being caused by Sunni insurgents, according to an ABC News analysis of data released for the month of October by the Defense Department. Of the 99 American soldiers killed in hostile action, at least 81 were killed by IED's or hostile fire in areas that are dominated by Sunni Arabs and where U.S. forces have been battling Sunni insurgents since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. By contrast, only three Americans were killed in areas dominated by Shiite Arabs. Fifteen were killed in central Baghdad where populations are mixed with Sunni and Shiite Arabs, and it is therefore difficult to determine the identity of the attackers. [/ QUOTE ] abc news [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for the link--this is exactly the type of analysis I was looking for but couldn't find. I guess my Google-Fu powers are lacking. Has anyone been able to find an wider analysis of insurgent attacks?
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#19
02-11-2007, 09:22 PM
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Re: Gates: Bombs Tie Iran to Iraq Extremists
Arent the Sunnis funded by the Saudis?
Besides, how can Americans expect other nations not to act in their own best interests? I've heard a lot of talk of bringing stability to the mideast. That is merely code for obedience. The threat of force is no longer enough to fighten nations into submission, especially after the Iraq debacle.
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