The "Should I CB? A Quiz"-quiz Revisited

kerplunkNL · #1 02-07-2007, 08:16 PM

The infamous Cbet-quiz by ajmargarine with comments from Pokey, bilbo-san, ajmargarine all neatly put together. Interesting to see some of the different opinions. I thought it might be usefull to put the comments of these excellent posters, IMO, together.

For more info about c-betting:

True about c-betting, theory post

MYNAMEIZGRES about c-betting, theory post

Pooh-Bah post by themachine about c-betting

Why am I c-betting this again? by bilbo-san

When your c-bets are called often

Assume full stacks at a NL50 table. Hero just sat down and has no reads. Do you CB in these spots?

If you don't CB a hand, why not?

H1

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4.5, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

 Yes. I'm not *thrilled* c-betting here, but the K is scary and my hand could easily still be best. Besides, it's a rare heads-up pot that you would not c-bet, and without any reads this ain't it.

Yes. And I probably double-barrel a good portion of the time unless I spike an A.

Yes. Take a stab at it and rep AK. He'll often fold out a better hand at this point like 22-88. 

H2

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($4.5, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

 Yes. Heads-up with a paired board, the odds are slimmer than usual that the board hit our opponent. Pick up the pot and move on. 

Yes, and double-barrel a lot. He can't call 2 streets without a queen, really. If villain is a show-down monkey I'll give up after the CB, and/or if it's a loose-passive
I'll check a turned Ace. 

No. On a paired broadway flop, you should often check behind with a KK-type hand. This will get you two streets of value from 88 and lose the least when they have the Q. So, I like a check here. They are never folding a better hand to a CB. You can delay your CB til the turn, or check it down and hope your A9 holds up agst his JT. 

H3

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($4.5, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

 Yes. Heads-up on the scariest board ever you've got to fire after your opponent checks. Fold to any check-raise in a heartbeat, but scoop the pot a ridiculously large fraction of the time. 

I'll only cb if I know villain is likely to have broadway cards and will nearly always fold a K.

Otherwise I check here and call a turn bet, and re-eval the river.

Yes. Rep the monster. Take your stab at it. Ace high flops are good to CB on. 

H4

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $2, MP calls $2, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($6.5, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero...

 Yes. This is the easiest c-bet in the bunch. You have added padding from a third player and you have as many as 18 outs to a winner. Even discounting against unlikely stuff, I'd say you've got at least 15 outs, meaning you're +EV getting all-in at even odds. If a villain wants to go to war, I'm three-betting all-in. If they want to fold, I'll scoop an extra-large pot into my belly. 

Tough one. If you bet here, I think you need to 2-barrel a lot because checking behind on the turn is rather obvious, and villain will bluff the river a lot with busted draws (and you can't really call).

Checking is nice because you get a free card that might stack the villain (hearts that make a straight), and you don't need to protect your hand. But I like betting because you can probably 4-bet fearlessly if he c/rs, or call very profitably in position to try and hit your draw. 

Yes. Bet it, we don't care if they c/r, cuz then we push with a billion outs. 

H5

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($6, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...

 Often, but far from always. This is a bet/fold, not a bet/call or bet/raise. Checking behind lacks much benefit because we're not really going to improve to a winner very often; I'd prefer to bet it and hope to scoop up this orphaned pot. Villains with a 2 or a 3 won't be confident about the hand, and will often walk away from the best hand. We have little reasonable hope of winning at showdown, so we might as well take one last shot at the gold. Besides: it's not like we're giving up much if we have to fold to a check-raise. 

Bet. You have great fold equity vs. tons of no-pair-no-draw hands that are better than yours, and your draw is pretty weak anyway. If your draw were open-ended checking would be more attractive because being c/red off of it sucks a lot more. 

Yes. Our hand is meh. The board is total trash and it goes check/check to us. I would lean toward CB'ing this and taking one shot. Hopefully that gets us to the river for free to hit our gutshot or takes it down enough on the flop. This is probably the most meh CB of the bunch. 

H6

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($4.5, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

 Yes, but not c-betting isn't bad. I love combo hands, and here I've got a mediocre pair, a decent straight draw and a backdoor mediocre flush draw. Multi-way I'm checking behind, but heads-up I'll try to pick up the pot. If I'm check-raised, I can fold to a strong bet without feeling TOO miserable, and I can call on implied odds if the bet is small enough. The board here is scary enough that I expect to win outright very often, and I'm not passing up my chance. 

Check! Better hands rarely fold (most Js have some draw too). Worse hands always fold. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] draws never fold but you can't really extract from them very well on the turn or river. You don't want to be check-raised here because you probably have significant equity.

Bet the turn if you hit or a blank falls and he checks. 

No. Let's see the turn here for sure. We can't really bet this for value, we're too weak. We can't afford to bet this for protection, because his draw could be better than our draw. And a better hand never folds if we CB. We might bet here maybe to build a pot, so that we get paid a bit if we hit a straight; but that's pretty meh.

Let's just try to see the river in this one. Check flop, call a turn bet is a decent plan. 

H7

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, Button calls $2, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($6.5, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero...

 No. Yucky: if I were in position I'd be tempted to c-bet. If I had J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I'd be tempted to c-bet. If I were heads-up I'd be tempted to c-bet. With the right read I'd be tempted to c-bet. As it stands, I'm usually giving up. 

Bet. You're kind of bluffing, but in reality you really want him to fold all kinds of junky hands that contain one [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. 

No. Let's check it. If it checks thru and checks to us on the turn, we can bet the non-spades and most other cards.

Big hands, big pots. Small hands, small pots. Red jacks on an all spade Q-hi board 3-way is a small hand. 

H8

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $2, 1 folds, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, 2 folds.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($6.75, 3 players)
Hero...

 No. This hand is infinitely pukey. I've got three outs to a winner with redraws for flush drawers. The board overlaps SIGNIFICANTLY with the range of my opponents, and I'm not heads up. I give up, checking and folding to a bet. 

Check, b/c 3ways. 

No. 3-way action. You got squat. C/f to action here and move on. 

Pokey's overall comments

[/ QUOTE ]AJ exaggerates when he says that a good number would be four "yes" answers and four "no" answers. I think c-bets are a powerfully important part of our arsenal and I think they work much more often than we think. Most notable is #5, which many people consider a clear check-through because our hand is crap: that's true, but consider a few other points:

- Both of our opponents have had a chance to bet and have passed on this. While this could be a cleverly-laid trap in the form of a check-raise, it's more often a pure miss.
- Pocket pairs reraise just as often as overcards. Our c-bet on such a dry board will look like a pocket pair to scared opponents who are out of position, and they will let us have the pot quite often.
- Even if our opponents put us on overs, they'll put us on STRONG overs. AK is crap, but it still beats J8: if our opponents are convinced that our crap beats their crap, they'll still fold.
- A c-bet gives us more folding equity if we manage to hit an ace or king on the turn, or if the board pairs on the turn. It will also disguise the bejeezus out of our hand if we miracle up a 4. I like buying more folding cards for the turn and I like cloaking my miracle outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

youthies · #2 02-07-2007, 08:24 PM

Thank you, that's some nice work. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Sir Winalot · #3 02-08-2007, 05:05 AM

Excellent work kerplunk. Thank you very much for this!

kabouter · #4 02-08-2007, 05:13 AM

Nice job, for summarizing all this great info.